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Old 16 Sep 2019, 03:40 (Ref:3928259)   #46
Forda
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That is absolute bullshit, the procedure followed for this adjustment was the same as all of the others, the board delegated to a technical committee, and never approved any parity adjustments because it was not the designated procedure for such.
No; it was done outside the regular process and can thus be perceived as being underhanded.

And let's not forget the secret parity adjustment done just a few days prior to the Hidden Valley round either.
That was a nice little surprise, for which the details were kept to a select few.
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 03:44 (Ref:3928260)   #47
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Originally Posted by leothedrummer View Post
But what kind of parity?

Technical parity, where all cars are supposedly built to the same rules? Or sporting parity, where all cars are supposedly able to get the same result?

Two very different concepts...
Good question and your view on the different types of parity does show that sometimes it is all in the eye of the beholder.

In the case of V8SA, it is a parity category and that is based on technical parity. The idea is that regardless of which brand a team races, when that team turns up at the racetrack it has as much chance of a good result as any other team provided the team does as good a job as the other teams - tuning the car, strategy, driver talent/application as examples all come into it. Of course, budgets and capacity to develop & simulate all sorts of components and situations come into it too.

We have seen that through the year when teams running the same make of car have had good/bad weekends in comparison to each other. If parity has been achieved, then the same should apply across all makes in competition. I actually think that the technical parity at the core of V8SA thinking has a little bit of your suggested sporting parity in it but not to the extent of taking measures to equalise between individual drivers/teams.
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 03:48 (Ref:3928261)   #48
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Originally Posted by Forda View Post
No; it was done outside the regular process and can thus be perceived as being underhanded.

And let's not forget the secret parity adjustment done just a few days prior to the Hidden Valley round either.
That was a nice little surprise, for which the details were kept to a select few.
The latest change was done as part of the regular process and advised to the teams and media - not even remotely underhanded.

The Hidden Valley adjustment was done as part of the regular process and advised to the teams - hardly a "select few" as you suggest. V8SA have clearly updated the process since HV to now ensure it goes to all media as well.
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 03:59 (Ref:3928263)   #49
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You can try and excuse the parity farce all you like; but the majority of race fans don't think highly of it (85% in the Speedcafe Poll), Crompton and Kelly didn't think much of it when they resigned from the commission, and the whole thing looks like it's being administered by amateurs.
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 07:33 (Ref:3928271)   #50
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Good question and your view on the different types of parity does show that sometimes it is all in the eye of the beholder.

In the case of V8SA, it is a parity category and that is based on technical parity. The idea is that regardless of which brand a team races, when that team turns up at the racetrack it has as much chance of a good result as any other team provided the team does as good a job as the other teams - tuning the car, strategy, driver talent/application as examples all come into it. Of course, budgets and capacity to develop & simulate all sorts of components and situations come into it too.

We have seen that through the year when teams running the same make of car have had good/bad weekends in comparison to each other. If parity has been achieved, then the same should apply across all makes in competition. I actually think that the technical parity at the core of V8SA thinking has a little bit of your suggested sporting parity in it but not to the extent of taking measures to equalise between individual drivers/teams.
I think the two terms are pretty straightforward, but Supercars has done a poor job of managing expectations. Supercars have stated that they're a series of technical parity, but not sporting parity. Mid season changes made seemingly on a whim don't match this statement well.

If Supercars wants to be a series of pure technical parity, then I think they could go about it a bit better. I actually think they should be considering an approach focused more on sporting parity, as I think this is more likely to get the results that the series and teams want. It's effectively what they're doing now, but without beating around the bush.

Also I can't help but have a dirty taste in my mouth when we can go from talking about Supercars being about technical parity to then talking about the apparent extreme differences between top level and bottom level teams. We're so focused on the difference between Mustang / Commodore / Altima and saying that everything is all good, but then what about the difference between 888 and Tekno? #15 and #78?
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 07:39 (Ref:3928272)   #51
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To answer your question Forda:

They've definitely needed to change up the way it's dealt with this year but to me they've been sensible in making smaller changes, assessing them and then adjusting further if needed.

Ideal? No, it hasn't been but it has been managed sensibly through the course of the season. It is clear that a much better set of tools for making assessments has been developed out of this year's challenges around adjusting parity between a coupe and a couple of sedans for the first time, rather than all sedans in previous years.

You can throw all the emotive, tantrum-like words around that you like but it has neither been underhand, nor a farce, nor a via the "back door" nor secretive. Sure it's taken 6 months or so to get it all sorted but it does look like that may have now been achieved and we'll get a much better idea of that over the upcoming events.
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 08:32 (Ref:3928275)   #52
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And throwing around vague, meaningless phrases such as "better set of tools", "making smaller changes", (to) "get a much better idea" unfortunately does very little to prove the reactionary and ad-hoc processes used this year have been either fair, or well executed.
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 09:27 (Ref:3928283)   #53
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We could always go back to group c rules, there was never any *****ing, winging and whining back then
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 10:09 (Ref:3928288)   #54
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And throwing around vague, meaningless phrases such as "better set of tools", "making smaller changes", (to) "get a much better idea" unfortunately does very little to prove the reactionary and ad-hoc processes used this year have been either fair, or well executed.
There were never so many parity adjustments when the holden teams were winning everything.

Supercars preach technical parity but employ lobbying parity.
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 10:22 (Ref:3928289)   #55
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Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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F1 is not a parity series.
Thousands of fans would say otherwise as the technical restrictions try & even out the performance via a big thick rule book and they are currently making it thicker because three teams are so far in front. Sounds like a parity series to me.
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 10:38 (Ref:3928293)   #56
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We could always go back to group c rules, there was never any *****ing, winging and whining back then
Imagine if there was social media and internet forums back in the Group C & A days.....



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Old 16 Sep 2019, 10:41 (Ref:3928296)   #57
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Imagine if there was social media and internet forums back in the Group C & A days.....



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^^^^^^^^ yep, I seem to remember back in the group c days, there were one or more court days trying to sort **** out
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 20:56 (Ref:3928406)   #58
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everyone whinging about parity should make have a think about the farce that would come out of a free for all set of rules.
aka spend the most and win.
teams struggle to pay the bills now...
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 22:31 (Ref:3928417)   #59
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V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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To answer your question Forda:

They've definitely needed to change up the way it's dealt with this year but to me they've been sensible in making smaller changes, assessing them and then adjusting further if needed.
Why is that sensible?

It far would be far more sensible to say the 2019 cars have been homologated and have aerodynamic technical parity under the requirements of the 2019 VCAT test and they stay as they are.

Everyone can have all year to go off and design a 2020 aero package under a clearer set of aero regulations that are the same for everybody.

In December, have Ford, Holden and Nissan bring along their 2020 specification aero packages with different options of wings, endplates and undertrays, and send them off to the USA to a wind tunnel to be tested thoroughly by an independent third party to ensure 100% technical parity.

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everyone whinging about parity should make have a think about the farce that would come out of a free for all set of rules.
aka spend the most and win.
What's wrong with that? The richest team or the team that does the best job deserves to win.

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Sure it's taken 6 months or so to get it all sorted but it does look like that may have now been achieved and we'll get a much better idea of that over the upcoming events.
Rushing through changes in six months is far too dramatic and heavy handed. The cars at that start of the season were tested under VCAT and aerodynamic parity at the required specifications was acheived. QED. That was done and dusted. It was proved they were equal under the requirements.

Teams are always allowed to rehomologate their aero kit for the next season, that is the provision for changes. NOT unverified changes when aerodynamic parity was already confirmed before season's start at a runway.

Folks would have been best advised to go and design whatever aero kit they want under clear 2020 aero rules, have them independently tested in a wind tunnel and go racing with that kit in 2020. The existing homologated and parity verified kits would be used for the 2019 season.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 16 Sep 2019 at 22:39.
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Old 16 Sep 2019, 23:02 (Ref:3928426)   #60
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everyone whinging about parity should make have a think about the farce that would come out of a free for all set of rules.
aka spend the most and win.
teams struggle to pay the bills now...
Who's asking for that?
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