What's happening to motorsport?

[GORDON STREETER]

Funnily enough George Polley has just phoned me up for a chat and I mentioned cost/falling grids etc, he said that things aren't so rosy on the ovals and he should know !

[historic racer]

Just seen that one of the races at the CTCRC meeting at Cadwell today had four, thats right 4 , starters. Who the hell allowed that to take place ? the slot could have been sold, to the benefit of all the other competitors. The market place has been too easy for too long, now its tight some clubs do not seem to have the business acumen to rise to the challenge ( yes I know its BARC organised ).

[simes43]

I would like to see the clubs and MSA actively
look at how they can reduce costs for both new
and old competitors instead of holding us to
ransom.

Sorry, times have moved on, a transponder cannot
cost the price of an iPad to make and a website full
of PDFs updated three times a weekend cannot
justify the price newcomers face.

The tyre cartels have to be examined and acted
upon too. Cheaper and longer lasting, sod the lap
times.

Rule stability is very good way of controlling costs
and preserving the value of people's assets. Any
changes need to actively reduce cost for the
competitor, not line one individuals pocket at
everyonelses expense.

Pub!

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by simes43

I would like to see the clubs and MSA actively
look at how they can reduce costs for both new
and old competitors instead of holding us to
ransom.

Sorry, times have moved on, a transponder cannot
cost the price of an iPad to make and a website full
of PDFs updated three times a weekend cannot
justify the price newcomers face.

I was at Thruxton today and the timing loop in the track seems to be severely broken to the point that they think the track may have to be dug up to replace it. Apart from a delay with the timings sheets of the first race, no doubt while they scratched their heads and other parts of their anatomy, TSL managed to get all the times out within the normal 15-30 minutes of the races ending. Seems the world doesn't come to an end when you remove one bit of unnecessary technology.

[GORDON STREETER]

Originally Posted by Tim Falce

Seems the world doesn't come to an end when you remove one bit of unnecessary technology.

It does when the computers go on the blink in a parts dept
While I'm on about modern technology do we still need a different transponder for Spa ?

[Al Weyman]

I ran a championship for many years and one of the basics of it was that we ran on hard wearing Falken tyres which would last several seasons but no competitors kept pushing for more and more stickier rubber and eventually the championship collapsed. I race in the Post Historic Touring Cars and CTCRC Group one and used to be with 25 or 30 cars in each race but this combined race is sadly the one mentioned above at Cadwell with just FOUR cars entered I couldnt be there as have a holed block but probably wouldnt have gone anyhow as dont like the place and its now too far to travel the 2nd reason the most relevant. Is it coincidence that the drivers in these two championships moaned consistantly to drop the equally hard wearing Dunlops (or introduced last year 1a's) to run on 1b's well they got their way now look whats happened, was Ken Clarke right on this one as it looks like it and when will guys start realising that if you change to a stickier tyre its not just you that goes faster but the whole field so the same guys still end up winning and everyone has to spend more money.

Conversely the Pre 93 entry looks healthy with 24 entries so what is this saying? It says to me what I have always thought and thats that the 93's were always the most cost effective event to enter because of the values of the cars for example a BMW 325 is a darn sight cheaper to prepare and source than an increasingly rare Mk 1 Escort or Dolomite Sprint, which is probably why the club wants to launch the post 93 to 2004 series and can you honestly blame them as they have the right to survive as anyone else.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by mig

My main costs when racing are the price of fuel, this is not going to get any cheaper, the government earn too much out of it which is why I think drivers are trying to keep to their local circuits.

Entry fees are getting higher but as has been said the organising clubs have to try and cover their costs. The only way to try and keep these low is if all of the races on the day have full grids, This is down to the drivers to enter and on time. I think that to help this situation clubs should put their differences aside and try to align their regs and have invitation classes or handicaps (put a car up a class) for cars that might not conform to a certain class. This would allow drivers to save on travelling costs and race at their local tracks in various visiting races. I also think that their are too many championships it seems that I always read about new championships starting up the msa should stop this unless it can be prooven that there is a gap in the market.

+1

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by GORDON STREETER

While I'm on about modern technology do we still need a different transponder for Spa ?

Your red one is OK or they'll loan you one and charge 10€ for the bracket.

[terence]

Seem's to be that the route of all evil stems from fuel cost.This in turn affects Organizers costs,circuit owners costs,in fact the whole chain of related sections of the sport-pretty much the same for everything in the UK. I really cannot understand the mentality behind the thinking of "We're not selling as much-we have to raise our prices". Surely,in order to attract more customers the better idea is to lower your base prices,hopefully raising the 'footfall' numbers?

Or is that going against the 'American' way that is wrecking the UK rather rapidly these days?

[Al Weyman]

I really cannot understand the mentality behind the thinking of "We're not selling as much-we have to raise our prices".

Glad someone agrees with me at last! I cannot do it in my business and have slashed prices to survive so how do these people think they can they really need to look long and hard at their pricing structure.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by terence bower

Or is that going against the 'American' way that is wrecking the UK rather rapidly these days?

[Al Weyman]

And I also think the bizzare late entry surcharge should be dropped onse and for all and have to ask why on earth is it there in the first place? We are club races and often do not know if our machines will be ready till the last moment so by including this penalty only alienates and puts off guys from entering. Lets drop it immediately and allow entry right up to noon the Friday before the event without penalty and have done.

[historic racer]

The only problem is if the clubs get their act together and get near maximum grids the circuit owners are going to see that and think lets have a bigger slice of the cake, so up go the circuit hire fees. Jonathan Palmer has gone from being a, complaining about entry fee levels ( I was there ) Modsport driver, to a lets raise the hire cost money worshiper. He may have gone up in financial standings but has gone down in humanity status. Anyone taking bets on whether or not the circuit hire fees go up in 2013 ????????????

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

And I also think the bizzare late entry surcharge should be dropped onse and for all and have to ask why on earth is it there in the first place? We are club races and often do not know if our machines will be ready till the last moment so by including this penalty only alienates and puts off guys from entering. Lets drop it immediately and allow entry right up to noon the Friday before the event without penalty and have done.

This has been mildly inconvenient for me too, but I bet no where near as inconvenient as organising loads of entries just before noon the day before a meeting.

They probably up the race entry fee by £30 and then give you a £30 reduction if you enter 'early'.

[Al Weyman]

We are in the 21st century just how hard can it be to add a few extra names to the race card. In the US and even in Ireland that can add you into another race on the day so just why do we overhere make such a song and dance about it in fact correction I believe even CSCC do it in their all comers race so it can be done. I remember a couple of years ago at least three of the CTCRC drivers wanted to put a late (after the Wednesday before the meeting) entry in and were told no way, the BARC NE lost possibly £600 for this inflexible attitude, how strange.

[Adam43]

Sorry, i thought you were whinging about the surchage not whinging about refusals to race.

They do allow entries on the morning as you say, I have entered races in the morning of a meeting (when i've been in another race). It isn't practical overall though.

Having knowledge of race entries early helps you plan the meeting better. In addition race organisers don't have armies of people to do the admin. On the Friday they may be travelling to the circuit.

If they know the number of entries early then they can combine grids or practice sessions. Thus reducing the number of low entry races. They can't do this if people send their entries in late.

Getting entries in early is helpful to others. Is isn't always a concern for some. It allows better planning of meetings. It is a nice thing to do and I can see why organisers encourage it with the £30 penalty. If you were allowed to do it on the race morning imagine if no one turned up because they couldn't be bothered at the last minute to go to Cadwell.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Sorry, i thought you were whinging about the surchage not whinging about refusals to race.

They do allow entries on the morning as you say, I have entered races in the morning of a meeting (when i've been in another race). It isn't practical overall though.

Having knowledge of race entries early helps you plan the meeting better. In addition race organisers don't have armies of people to do the admin. On the Friday they may be travelling to the circuit.

If they know the number of entries early then they can combine grids or practice sessions. Thus reducing the number of low entry races. They can't do this if people send their entries in late.

Getting entries in early is helpful to others. Is isn't always a concern for some. It allows better planning of meetings. It is a nice thing to do and I can see why organisers encourage it with the £30 penalty. If you were allowed to do it on the race morning imagine if no one turned up because they couldn't be bothered at the last minute to go to Cadwell.

Whilst I don't agree with late entry fees, the rest of this post is SPOT ON

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by historic racer

The only problem is if the clubs get their act together and get near maximum grids the circuit owners are going to see that and think lets have a bigger slice of the cake, so up go the circuit hire fees. Jonathan Palmer has gone from being a, complaining about entry fee levels ( I was there ) Modsport driver, to a lets raise the hire cost money worshiper. He may have gone up in financial standings but has gone down in humanity status. Anyone taking bets on whether or not the circuit hire fees go up in 2013 ????????????

Has the price of petrol not gone up for JP then? Has the recent bill increases for electricity, gas and water as well as rates bypassed Kent?

Seriusly,, whatever business you are in, does not the cost of EVERYTHING go up? Why is it that you feel that JP has managed not to suffer from what everyone has suffered from?

I am in my. mmm no hold on, - am old enough to remember Snett when it was a naff hole, when Brands Hatch was a disaster and whilst I will openly admit that I am not personally comfortable with the fact that MSV owns that many circuits, I'm sorry but the investment in those circuits with regards to facilities and the likes is without doubt, better. Also what people keep forgetting is that due to ever more H and S with regards to safety etc, money has to be spent, but one thing is certain ITS A BUSINESS and needs to make a profit. Or do you think its should all be put on for nothing?

[MGDavid]

...BUT
JP's investment seems mostly to be able to attract the big-ticket events, it took years and years of campaigning to get half-decent facilities for marshals, and there's still no power in the paddocks for clubmen.

[Al Weyman]

Couple of points Adam I am NOT whinging I am debating, a suttle difference my friend I also never suggested leaving it as late as the Saturday but cannot see why entries cannot be made up till lunchtime on the Friday with or without the silly penalty that I know sticks in drivers throats and I know for a fact many won't enter as a result of having to pay.

[Ian Sowman]

If you don't have a means of encouraging drivers to enter by the closing date, drivers would make no effort to enter before the closing date. It would make it completely impractical to effectively plan a timetable for a race meeting. As an idea, it is a non-starter.

The penalty is badly presented though. It should simply be dressed up as it is £300 to enter the race, of £270 if you enter before [insert date].

Some clubs are quite flexible on entries cancelled before the race weekend - so if you put an entry in early and then have to cancel, you will not suffer a significant (if any) financial penalty.

[Al Weyman]

I still think it could be closed up a bit I fail to see why it has to be ten days before the entry has to go in. OK lets bring it forward a tad to the Monday before so if anyone is racing the previous weekend they can make sure their car has survived Ok before putting in an entry.

[Tim Falce]

While I've never paid a late entry fee despite often not entering until a few days before hand most clubs will give a refund up to 3 days before the meeting so I don't see a problem with the 2 week closing date. Don't forget that they need to include you in the programme (these printers can be so unreliable sometime ) and also to get enough trophies made up as they don't like giving them out if they can avoid it. CSCC, 750, MGCC

[flagwaver]

Part of the reason for trying to get entries in early is so timetables etc can be planned and in some case (no where near enough IMHO) amalgamate races and even scrap races/ meetings. One way to do this is to place a "surcharge" on entries received by a certain date.

If I was going to marshal an event and a couple of days before the event saw the entry for each race was only 5 or 6 then I might think is it worth it and do something else instead.

[historic racer]

Originally Posted by ClaireSmith

Has the price of petrol not gone up for JP then? Has the recent bill increases for electricity, gas and water as well as rates bypassed Kent?

Seriusly,, whatever business you are in, does not the cost of EVERYTHING go up? Why is it that you feel that JP has managed not to suffer from what everyone has suffered from?

I am in my. mmm no hold on, - am old enough to remember Snett when it was a naff hole, when Brands Hatch was a disaster and whilst I will openly admit that I am not personally comfortable with the fact that MSV owns that many circuits, I'm sorry but the investment in those circuits with regards to facilities and the likes is without doubt, better. Also what people keep forgetting is that due to ever more H and S with regards to safety etc, money has to be spent, but one thing is certain ITS A BUSINESS and needs to make a profit. Or do you think its should all be put on for nothing?

Nice sarky reply there Claire perhaps stating the obvious, thats why then MSV has managed to buy a Learjet to hire out ( how cheap was that !!! ) and JP flies around in a helicopter . JP was not complaining about the facilities or anything about the circuit but about the level of entry fees, We raced on what we had in those days and if you look at the Castrol film about Frank Gardener at Oulton and Thruxton ( I'm in it ! ) the state of the circuits was in keeping with the rest of life for the period, lots of things look bad when we compare what was and what is now. The circuits try to attract the high profile meetings which mean high profile facilities which us clubmen have to contribute towards, glitzy grandstands mean nothing at our level, our spectators could be accomodated on a park bench.