How to fix F1?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

1866

1865, in which the winglets were mentioned by S. Griffin. 1866 was in response to that.

[Peter Mallett]

*pedants corner*

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

*pedants corner*

Pedants'



Sent from my AC2003 using Tapatalk

[Peter Mallett]

Back of the net!

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yes indeed. Go back to full fat V8s and hang the consequences. It's not going to save the planet nor is it going to do any lasting damage considering the volume of stuff burnt. Only my opinion of course.

I saw a post on LinkedIn from an american poster. He wanted to know who was the GOAT. Not one mention of Lewis Hamilton or motorsport which possibly demonstrates how important F1 and its actions is to the world in general.

The second point is the most relevant-if it were banned they wouldn't notice.

[Peter Mallett]

Yes, it may demonstrate that the organisers have got so far up their own behinds they can't see how generally unimportant F1, or dare I say it, motorsport is.

[S griffin]

F1 can't take over the world, it's still very popular and I'm sure plenty would hate to see it go, but it's not the be all and end all. We watch (and in some cases do) motorsport because it's something we like to do and a lot of us are very passionate about it, but it's not the most important thing in the world and that's the perspective we need to keep

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Formula E works well in it’s own right and it’s fine if manufacturers want to go there. However for me I don’t see any reason for F1 to go down that route

Formula E cars are laughably slow and do EVs a disservice -- reminding people that batteries are extremely heavy and EV sportscars lack range and endurance performance compared to petrol sportscars . Formula One would however be the perfect place to push EV technology forward to point where EVs can store enough charge to do 305km @ 1000bhp output in an electric car that weighs only 750kg.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

There is no free energy

Tell that to sailing enthusiasts!

The future of eco-friendly racing?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yes indeed. Go back to full fat V8s and hang the consequences. It's not going to save the planet nor is it going to do any lasting damage considering the volume of stuff burnt. Only my opinion of course.

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Confession time, I am shortly to become the proud owner of a MACH E. I bought it because it looks like fun and I ordered it before the government announcement about 2030.

If you lived in Australia (where there are no CO2 road taxes, no congestion charges and fuel excise is cheap) would you have purchased a regular V8 Mustang, or were you 100% set on the Mach E Mustang?

[Peter Mallett]

Actually were I younger, the full fat Mustang would be the choice, but you can't get two dogs into a Mustang.

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Tell that to sailing enthusiasts!

The future of eco-friendly racing?

That explains why a bunch of Mercedes guys from Brackley were working on the British America's Cup campaign-contingency planning!

[Casper]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

If you lived in Australia (where there are no CO2 road taxes, no congestion charges and fuel excise is cheap) would you have purchased a regular V8 Mustang, or were you 100% set on the Mach E Mustang?

You can't buy the Mach E in Oz and Mustangs are rubbish anyway so what are the other choices?

[Peter Mallett]

You're only jealous.

[S griffin]

I guess Europe having more choice of car is a good thing to be jealous about

[Sodemo]

I think in terms of F1's direction the powers that be are really in an unenviable position in that sticking with the status quo is expensive and will start to lose relevance in the near future, but they can't go full electric for a number of reasons (1 I understand is contractual with Formula E) the others are more practical reasons, however they cant be seen to go back, because F1 never goes back and does U turns because that would seen to be a retrograde step, so I cant see V8s returning.

What I think might happen is that they will stick with the V6 formula but probably have a more conventional (cheaper) design with a not as expensive hybrid system.

[Peter Mallett]

I think your post demonstrates the major issue. Whatever it does in an effort to be relevant it becomes irrelevant. Classic catch 22. Moving to a cheaper form of V6 PU suggests that it has been burning money for no good reason.

If we took away the need to be relevant and just concentrated on racing then the profile would be severely reduced. But since its profile is being eroded by the quest for relevance it may be that the next changes will be the last for the current business model.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by Sodemo

I think in terms of F1's direction the powers that be are really in an unenviable position in that sticking with the status quo is expensive and will start to lose relevance in the near future, but they can't go full electric for a number of reasons (1 I understand is contractual with Formula E) the others are more practical reasons, however they cant be seen to go back, because F1 never goes back and does U turns because that would seen to be a retrograde step, so I cant see V8s returning.

What I think might happen is that they will stick with the V6 formula but probably have a more conventional (cheaper) design with a not as expensive hybrid system.

I pretty much agree. I do think a simpler solution will be a bit of "going back", but it is VERY limited and still provides the ability to provide proper PR spin with respect to not being out of sync with the future of vehicle power.

I would like to be surprised by something like a NA V8 + KERS solution, but I am not holding my breath. Those who might think NA V12 is on the horizon, please be prepared to be disappointed.

Richard

[S griffin]

We can’t keep going with the current engines. They haven’t exactly bought in loads of manufacturers. They may be good PR, but that’s about the only good thing and only justification for keeping them. We’ll have to see what the next generation of engines bring to the table

Going back to KERS isn’t a step forward necessarily, it was good back in the day, but it’s probably not in the best interest of F1 and the FIA anymore. We hopefully won’t have the V6 hybrids anymore. Hopefully the next ones will be more powerful. No chance of a return to V12s, that is probably fantasy

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

We can’t keep going with the current engines. They haven’t exactly bought in loads of manufacturers. They may be good PR, but that’s about the only good thing and only justification for keeping them. We’ll have to see what the next generation of engines bring to the table

Going back to KERS isn’t a step forward necessarily, it was good back in the day, but it’s probably not in the best interest of F1 and the FIA anymore. We hopefully won’t have the V6 hybrids anymore. Hopefully the next ones will be more powerful. No chance of a return to V12s, that is probably fantasy

Hopefully the next what will be more powerful? Why is more power needed, the current units can put out a lot more power if restrictions on use and fuel were to be lifted.

[P38 in workshop]

How about allowing new entrants provided they use crate engines from the main American manufacturers?V8's could run unsilenced and make lots of noise and very cheap.Compel existing entrants to stick with the current engines and see which technology wins.It might buy a bit of time while the FIA comes up with a scheme to deprive Formula E of the sole right to run single seat electric championships.Or maybe Liberty will invest in developing a sim racing app so that drivers can stay at home and appear to be racing at the classic circuits without much of a carbon footprint.

[Peter Mallett]

If you aren't very careful, your tongue will punch through your cheek!

[Sodemo]

Well, in a sense, the ACO has "gone backwards" with the hypercar rules as the hybrid aspect of them is in no way as developed as it was with LMP1 (as far as I can understand). This has then resulted in quite a number of teams expressing interest in entering.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Hopefully the next ones will be more powerful. No chance of a return to V12s, that is probably fantasy

What would be the level of power you hope for?

The current AMG M10 EQ Power+ is estimated to produce upwards of 900HP, +160HP from KERS.

To compare this with previous engines (estimated figures):

The BMW M12 was claimed to be at 1,400HP in race trim, but only for up to 4 laps. In race trim this was circa. 800HP.

V8s, V10s and V12s have never really delivered much in excess of 800HP at best, and most were closer to 750HP.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

V8s, V10s and V12s have never really delivered much in excess of 800HP at best, and most were closer to 750HP.

The 2.4L Honda V8 produced 747hp despite being restricted to port-injection, therefore a more efficient direct-injected 3.2L V12 would produce well in excess of 995hp (3.2/2.4*747).

Reference:
https://www.racecar-engineering.com/...gine-revealed/

The figures for the 3.0 V10s in 2005 are generally considered to be around 950hp, so I'm not sure where you got a figure of 800hp from.

BMW quote the following figures:
2000 3.0 V10 810hp
2001 3.0 V10 880hp
2002 3.0 V10 895hp
2003 3.0 V10 940hp
2004 3.0 V10 950hp
2005 3.0 V10 >950hp (abandoned and Williams were supplied with 2004 engines again)
Source:
10 Years of BMW F1 Engines
by Mario Theissen, Markus Duesmann, et al.
BMW Group, Munich
http://sd-2.archive-host.com/membres...urs_BMW_F1.pdf

That's the figure 950hp for the 3.0 V10, straight from the horse's mouth.... A 3.2 V12 in 2025 should have little trouble producing >1000hp using the now permitted direct-injection and other techniques for improved efficiency.

It's only logical to remove the turbocharger and replace it by a doubling of displacement.

Do you really want a 1.0 V4 turbo hybrid Formula One car!? Red Bull Racing probably doesn't want that and probably not Ferrari either. Only Mercedes and Renault want that.