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Old 15 Jan 2020, 07:42 (Ref:3951691)   #26
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Originally Posted by Forda View Post
TCR event crowds are minimal, so not sure how well it is actually being embraced as a whole.
Crowds would be fine if TCR cars were competing for the main prizes at the Superloop 500, Supercheap Auto 1000, ITM 400 in NZ, Townsville 400, Gold Coast 600 etc etc

If it is sold to the fans as the age old series just with a different set of regs, the majority of fans will just blindly buy it
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Old 15 Jan 2020, 08:42 (Ref:3951697)   #27
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TCR crowds were small last year

but they had minimal promotion or publicity and were only shown on SBS with shoe string budget

This year, with s5000 and TCM and other support classes, 4 hour live coverage on ch7, with a lot of promotion, it just might do a "world series cricket"
The crowd for WSC were terrible to begin with, sell out crowds after a year or so.
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Old 15 Jan 2020, 09:02 (Ref:3951698)   #28
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How on earth are TCR "bloody horrible things", they are much more similar to the Megane RS or Golf GTI that you drive everyday.

A HSV GTS you might drive everyday (if you can afford the fuel, the tyres and the brakes etc) is much further removed from the Wakinshaw Andretti supercar.
How is that a definition of a good racing car? The closer it is in DNA to your everyday car the better it is? That's not what I, or anyone I know, wants out of a racing car.
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Old 15 Jan 2020, 09:24 (Ref:3951699)   #29
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When you run into a member of the Supercar's Technical Department
at a TCR race last year and their words to me where
"this will be us in 4 to 5 years", makes you think the writing is on the wall.
Were they referring to the type of cars being raced, or the fanfare and crowd size?
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Old 15 Jan 2020, 10:33 (Ref:3951708)   #30
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How is that a definition of a good racing car? The closer it is in DNA to your everyday car the better it is? That's not what I, or anyone I know, wants out of a racing car.
Unless I have forgotten something "The closer it is in DNA to your everyday car the better it is", is EXACTLY what the point of touring car racing is!


As Tiff Needel says, "The Ford Sierra touring car is not a pukka racer. The bodyshell is full of holes. A touring car is a compromise. It's a road car made into a racer. It doesn't have the rigidity of a pukka racer, it rolls in the corners. What results is a lot of arm twirling and a lot of fun.”
Link: https://youtube.com/watch?v=iJl0-daCCHs

If you wanted to build a race car from scratch you don't give it four doors and a roof and even a boot (!)...

You'd start by putting the engine on the floor in the middle as a structural component of the vehicle, a lightweight carbon monocoque to hold the driver who is also sitting on the floor, inboard suspension etc... Hey presto you have your formula car or LMP car.

Touring cars are not proper race cars, so why shouldn't they reflect the car you drive? Whether it's 1989 and the car you drive to work is a Nissan Skyline GTS coupe or Ford Sapphire Cosworth, or it's 2020 and the car you drive to work is a Golf GTI or Alfa Romeo Giulietta Veloce.

That's doesn't mean Supercars should adopt TCR. There is an open opportunity for Supercars to race cars *based* on the Alfa Giulia Quadrifolgio, BMW M3, Mercedes C63 AMG, Jaguar XE R and so on...

That's the modern market for four door rear drive performance cars, so that's the segment Supercars needs to target if they want to race those kinds of touring cars.

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 15 Jan 2020 at 10:47.
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Old 15 Jan 2020, 11:39 (Ref:3951726)   #31
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Is there really enough money in the series to go hybrid? I thought costs were are source of pain now, with V8's - can't imagine hybrids will help there.

The cars/series needs to be simplified to reflect the realities of racing cars in Australia.
A point I have raised before, a hybrid car will cost far far more to build and run than either a straight IC car or full BEV and the latter would be by far the cheapest. What a BEV will do will put engine builders out of business.
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Old 15 Jan 2020, 12:29 (Ref:3951745)   #32
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This year, with s5000 and TCM and other support classes, 4 hour live coverage on ch7, with a lot of promotion, it just might do a "world series cricket"
The crowd for WSC were terrible to begin with, sell out crowds after a year or so.
World Series Cricket had all the stars

TCR has... Up and coming ace Jason Bargwanna...
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Old 15 Jan 2020, 17:04 (Ref:3951802)   #33
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as I have said MANY times Supercars are a 'sports sedan'
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Old 15 Jan 2020, 18:19 (Ref:3951813)   #34
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The automotive landscape has changed (move to SUV's and smaller cars instead of larger sedans) and will change in the coming years (move to electric powered cars).

If the series wants to be road relevant - in other words involvement of manufacturers or importers - it has to follow the automotive landscape.

If it can survive without this involvement - technical but especially money wise - they could keep the current cars and big engines, or a similar but cheaper formula like TransAm.

In the last case it's questionable on the long term if sponsors want to be involved. Large companies want - or are forced by the public - to spend their money on a "green" way.
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Old 15 Jan 2020, 20:53 (Ref:3951844)   #35
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... is it not feasible to switch back to a generic ruleset such as Improved Production? The you can ‘run what ya brung’


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Old 15 Jan 2020, 21:24 (Ref:3951847)   #36
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World Series Cricket had all the stars



TCR has... Up and coming ace Jason Bargwanna...


He’s about the same height as some young talent
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Old 15 Jan 2020, 22:32 (Ref:3951856)   #37
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Were they referring to the type of cars being raced, or the fanfare and crowd size?
Type of car.
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 00:59 (Ref:3951867)   #38
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World Series Cricket had all the stars

TCR has... Up and coming ace Jason Bargwanna...
Hence why the new-for-1997 IMG/Supercars 1000 won the war and is in its 23rd year, while the original Bathurst 1000 carried on for a couple of years but carked it after 1998 then the event as a whole after 1999....

The fans watched the stars in the new race and didn’t care that the original 35-year old race died off, similarly with World Series Cricket, the stars win out.
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 01:11 (Ref:3951868)   #39
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... is it not feasible to switch back to a generic ruleset such as Improved Production? The you can ‘run what ya brung’
Btw the Improved Production rules have suffered such creep over 20 years that they are just about Sports Sedans now and I would suggest there are cars there approaching Super2 car costs.

It is the usual thing, the original intent gets lost by lobbying for one little thing here and one little thing there... Death of a thousand paper cuts.
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 02:02 (Ref:3951870)   #40
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... is it not feasible to switch back to a generic ruleset such as Improved Production? The you can ‘run what ya brung’


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it is happening already pretty much, CAMS Production Car series
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 02:15 (Ref:3951871)   #41
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The fans watched the stars in the new race and didn’t care that the original 35-year old race died off, similarly with World Series Cricket, the stars win out.
Despite the Super Touring Races being by being somewhat more entertaining motor races.
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 02:17 (Ref:3951872)   #42
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Btw the Improved Production rules have suffered such creep over 20 years that they are just about Sports Sedans now and I would suggest there are cars there approaching Super2 car costs.

I think I know which ones you are talking about ;-)

Would get around the problem of having to run current body shapes however and end the reliance on manufacturers.

Maybe a new ruleset based on IP which winds back the freedoms on suspension components / geometry, allows minimal aero and body mods, and puts an age limit on cars to keep it relevant (i.e. a 6 year rolling window).

Almost sounds like Group C / Group A hybrid


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Old 16 Jan 2020, 04:04 (Ref:3951877)   #43
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TCR started with something like that and now you have 1 car nobody can buy and 2 that are not racing with production engines, and nobody uses their production gearbox.

So you see how the death of a thousand paper cuts start?

One little freedom here, one there...
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 22:04 (Ref:3952002)   #44
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Firstly, my apologies that I've done a fair bit of multi-quoting -have had a largely internet-free (!!!!) break so catching up.

Think of crystal ball thread re cars that aren't due to appear for a couple of years can be quite interesting and no doubt will move around a fair bit this year and next.
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The startling lack of commentary on the part of the promoters seems to indicate they are still trying to work that out. That they do not appear to have a business plan or some sort of strategy to deal with what to others seemed to be obvious is nothing short of bizarre. How much are these people paid?
Well VASC has (in particular, the CEO) has mentioned a number of times that they're working on the plans for the 2022 and beyond car. From the various things that have been said, it seems to me that plenty is going on and when they have the plans finalised, we'll find out.

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Supercars days are very much numbered, they have painted themselves into a corner and there is no return from it - just look at how the TCR series is gaining fan momentum
People have been predicting Supercars days to be numbered, pretty much right from the start. This time you may be right Trevor, or maybe not. TCR after one season hasn't really "gained fan momentum" in a sense of causing Supercars days to be numbered but it could work as a series (so far so heavily subsidised it's hard to know) and time will tell.

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Yep TCR it seems is growing as fast as VASC is declining and disappearing up its own orifice.
After one season of heavily subsidised competition, run at small crowd events, TCR has at least partially established itself, signs are good that it can work but when there was nothing before, "growth" can look awesome on startup - in my view we probably won't have a clearer picture of its strength (or not) until at least the end of this year.

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I think the lack of comment in this thread says it all, RIP Supercars?
What's there to comment on in any great way, given that what the Supercars racing vehicles will look like in 2 years time is as yet unknown? It's all hypothetical and given that this thread has existed for 7 days and could run for 2 years, a slow(ish) start is understandable.

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Funny old world isn't it? I love the Supercars series as the majority of saloon car racing in Europe is TCR now which leaves me cold. Yet the Aussies seem to be embracing it. Guess we all love what we don't have.
Can sometimes be the case Johno although I don't thing that Aussies (yet) are embracing TCR - much smaller crowds and all that. It's been a funny old world for some time where people outside of Oz have appreciated and loved Supercars much more than some inside Oz.
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 22:10 (Ref:3952004)   #45
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Supercars don't appear to have a 5 year plan or 10 year plan, which must be alarming for competitors and fans.
10 year plans, other than some high-point items are a flog, particularly in the sports/entertainment business where things can and do change very rapidly.

I think that Supercars may well have a 3-5 year plan as the CEO has mentioned a number of things over time indicating that they are working to a timeline etc - certainly the plans for the 2022 car are well underway from what he's said.

We saw with the announcement to drop Commodore from the market last year that sometimes, multi-year plans get thrown out the window anyway.

On top of all that, any 5 year plan would be shared with the shareholders and those investing time/money, rather than with the world outside (us).
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 22:13 (Ref:3952006)   #46
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Crowds would be fine if TCR cars were competing for the main prizes at the Superloop 500, Supercheap Auto 1000, ITM 400 in NZ, Townsville 400, Gold Coast 600 etc etc

If it is sold to the fans as the age old series just with a different set of regs, the majority of fans will just blindly buy it
Possible but it didn't work that way for Supertouring did it? The time may well have come though, not today but in the next few years.
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 22:19 (Ref:3952010)   #47
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Possible but it didn't work that way for Supertouring did it? The time may well have come though, not today but in the next few years.
Super Touring was a start from scratch championship setup in 1994 to run seperate to the existing ATCC.

The scenario above was that if the “Supercars Championship” ended one season with Gen2 then started the next season at Adelaide with TCR cars, as we did with Group C to Group A, then later Group A to V8s.
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 22:21 (Ref:3952012)   #48
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TCR crowds were small last year

but they had minimal promotion or publicity and were only shown on SBS with shoe string budget

This year, with s5000 and TCM and other support classes, 4 hour live coverage on ch7, with a lot of promotion, it just might do a "world series cricket"
The crowd for WSC were terrible to begin with, sell out crowds after a year or so.
Possible and no doubt ARG would be looking to grow from the first year. I think that FTA on a mainstream network is going to be a big help, no doubt about it.

Procar went down a similar path but it didn't work out for them but in those days, Supercars was on FTA on a rival network. The viewing landscape is very different now but then, the demographic that is supposedly fired up about TCR (younger demographic) tends to go for streaming for sport so maybe the FTA thing isn't that big a deal for them?

IMHO, more than the cost blowout on COTF, more than any parity debate, more than manufacturers coming or going, the biggest BY FAR mistake made by Supercars in recent years was the decision to go with payTV almost exclusively - took something that was a "must watch" habit and made it a "maybe" or even "can't watch" - so very, very dumb and short-sighted. Thank you James Warburton and the board members at the time.
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 22:25 (Ref:3952013)   #49
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as I have said MANY times Supercars are a 'sports sedan'
In your opinion - however the FIA system (including Motorsport Australia) calls them a "Touring Car".

As mentioned by someone else in another thread, Motorsport Australia lists consider both "sports sedans" and supercars to be "Touring Cars". Both are still a Touring Car.
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Old 16 Jan 2020, 22:30 (Ref:3952014)   #50
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Super Touring was a start from scratch championship setup in 1994 to run seperate to the existing ATCC.

The scenario above was that if the “Supercars Championship” ended one season with Gen2 then started the next season at Adelaide with TCR cars, as we did with Group C to Group A, then later Group A to V8s.
Those previous changes you mention still had the "big" cars running - a swap completely to TCR or similar would not have that. Not saying it can't be done but I don't think retaining fans would be simple.

My reference to Supertouring was primarily in relation to Bathurst - the change was made to the type of cars running in the event from one year to the next and the fans stayed away from the track and their TVs. Long time ago now and IF it were to happen in the next few years, maybe it could work this time.
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