Winkelmann-Palliser

[allenbrown]

This is probably the Franklen, the Len Bailey-designed, Frank Gardner-commissioned F5000 car intended for the 1970 UK season but not raced. Palliser then bought the project but again it didn't race. Alec Mildren then bought the car and it was raced by Bartlett in the 1971 Tasman as the Mildren-Chev.

Allen

[Davhut]

Allen:
Any idea where I might find some action photos or history of this car in action?
David

[Bryan Miller]

Allen,

That does look like the Franklen/ Mildren , very unloved , Errol Richardson drove it once from memory as well as Kev. Bartlett , I think the car is still lurking around south of Sydney somewhere , maybe , just maybe it was turned into the Wortmeyer s/c hillclimb car , will investigate.

[allenbrown]

David, there's not much published on this car and I have barely enough for a page. For period photos, Autopics would be your best bet. I found this and this.

Ted Walker has pictures from the 1971 Tasman which he's due to scan for me. I can't recall whether the Franklen was amongst those.

Would Keith let me use his photo on OldRacingCars.com?

Bryan, last I heard, Wortmeyer still owned it. I'd be very interested to learn more about its recent history.

Allen

[rms]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

David, there's not much published on this car and I have barely enough for a page. For period photos, Autopics would be your best bet. I found this and this.

Ted Walker has pictures from the 1971 Tasman which he's due to scan for me. I can't recall whether the Franklen was amongst those.

Would Keith let me use his photo on OldRacingCars.com?

Bryan, last I heard, Wortmeyer still owned it. I'd be very interested to learn more about its recent history.

Allen

Allen,
Jack and Mae Wortmeyer passed away 2 years ago within days of each other. The car is still owned by the Wortmeyer family in Wollongong.

The cars last outing was the '74 Tasman round at Oran Park where the accelerator pedal fell off after 5 laps. Jack took the car home and stripped it. He did not want anyone to drive it again, he was very worried about a driver being injured in a car he owned.
He may have rubbed a lot of people the wrong way but he was truly a gentle man.

It still sits in the shed in exactly the same spot with all parts stored away.

Should the family decide to sell I have been offered the first option. As a young driver some 35 years ago, to be given the opportunity to drive an F5000 (even then an old one) was 'out of this world'.

Erol Richardson

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by rms

Allen,
Jack and Mae Wortmeyer passed away 2 years ago within days of each other. The car is still owned by the Wortmeyer family in Wollongong.

The cars last outing was the '74 Tasman round at Oran Park where the accelerator pedal fell off after 5 laps. Jack took the car home and stripped it. He did not want anyone to drive it again, he was very worried about a driver being injured in a car he owned.
He may have rubbed a lot of people the wrong way but he was truly a gentle man.

It still sits in the shed in exactly the same spot with all parts stored away.

Should the family decide to sell I have been offered the first option. As a young driver some 35 years ago, to be given the opportunity to drive an F5000 (even then an old one) was 'out of this world'.

Erol Richardson

Welcome Erol, and thanks for this update.

You drove the car in 1973 and in 1974 didn't you? Do you know how Jack acquired the car? Did he get it straight from Mildren?

Allen

PS I really, really must write a page on this car now!

[rms]

Allen,
The car was purchased from Alec Mildren after he had closed the race team, somewhere around mid '72 (memory is a bit foggy). It may have been 'unloved' but it arrived on the scene at the end of the M10B era and by '72 was outdated, as was the M10B.

I remember seeing a photograph taken at a Hume Weir meeting with myself on pole in the F5000 and Ray Winter in the Mildren 'Yellow Submarine' alongside. Both cars still in Mildren colours. I must try and track it down.

Erol

[rms]

Link to another pic.

http://www.autopics.com.au/cache/ite....html?cache=no

[allenbrown]

Why was it called the SC5 when you had it? Do you remember?

[rms]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Why was it called the SC5 when you had it? Do you remember?

Jack was a benefactor of hillclimbing and his cars used supercharged VW engines, hence SCV. When he purchased the 'Mildren' F5000 he did not want to advertise Alec Mildren so it was renamed 'Wortmeyer SC5'.
Quite a 'to do' with CAMS as they did not want to issue a renamed log book, until Jack pointed out it wasn't a 'Mildren' either.

The SCV hillclimb car of recently deposed Australian Hillclimb Champion, Peter Gumley, was built and owned by Jack in 1970/71.

[Team Blitz]

Pardon, if this has already been suggested, but Mr. Winkelmann is alive and well, tends to his email regularly, and might be interested in joining this thread should someone like to make the invitation. He's a top chap in all respects. And is an expert in Lotus Cortinas as well.

Norm

[Tim Falce]

Why don't you drop him an email and invite him although I believe we may have already told him.

[Team Blitz]

Originally Posted by falcemob

Why don't you drop him an email and invite him although I believe we may have already told him.

Happy to. I didn't think it my place being such a noob here, if you know what I mean.

I was thinking Wink might have some records which would help, not to mention his memories. I recall that his brother, perhaps, handled the UK end of the business. I'm not sure. (I'm a sedan guy, not an open wheel man.)

I'll drop Wink an email invite in the next day or so.

Norm

[flightlessbird]

Rumour has it that the SC5 or parts there of have moved south of Wollongong for a good polishing

[jesvilla]

I aquired a Winkleman-Palliser a few years ago, but found no chassis plates or stampings on the frame, I have been actively looking for photos to try to discern what model it is, unfortunately it has been cut up and modified in the center/driver section, and the front suspension had been modified to a pull-rod type(blacksmith style) the rear of the chassis looks similar to some of the photos I've seen online, and is basically original. When I got it, it was a complete car with Audi 2.0 Liter supercharged engine and Mk9 gearbox, have since dissasembled everything and would like to repair the front suspension and center to original specs. Any help in this regard would be greatly appreciated, even if it's just photos that can look at to copy.

Thanks
Jesus Villarreal

[jesvilla]

I have a Winkelmann, but could find no tag or stamped number, I also tried to get info from Bob W. through the Golden Gate Lotus Club, when i first got the car a few years ago, but he said wanted nothing to do with it.

[allenbrown]

Andy Antipas should be able to help you:

http://www.pallisercars.com/

[jesvilla]

Thanks Allen, I have sent Andy an email.

And excuse me for the double post, I sent the first one and when it didn't appear after a while, I sent the second one.

Jesus

[jesvilla]

OK, I found some entry lists for one of the previous owners, he listed it as a '69 Winkelmann. All the pictures I've seen of the FF's have the steering rack on the front of the bulkhead, mine has the rack back and above the pedals and is rear-steer. Did any of the cars come that way originally, or is this one more modification that was done by a Previous owner?

Jesus

[Layabout]

Originally Posted by jesvilla

OK, I found some entry lists for one of the previous owners, he listed it as a '69 Winkelmann. All the pictures I've seen of the FF's have the steering rack on the front of the bulkhead, mine has the rack back and above the pedals and is rear-steer. Did any of the cars come that way originally, or is this one more modification that was done by a Previous owner?

Jesus

Have you identified your Winkelmann? I would be glad to help. I have a lot of photos & know the cars rather well. Let me know.

[Henrik Pedersen]

Hi
I know this is out of topic, but I need to know if the are a Autodynamics/Caldwell club in the states ?
I need a nosebadge for my Caldwell D9.
Can anyone help me ?

[jesvilla]

Originally Posted by Layabout

Have you identified your Winkelmann? I would be glad to help. I have a lot of photos & know the cars rather well. Let me know.

Layabout:
No I have not, after further disassembly and looking at it, it is bent in all four corners, and really has been hashed a bunch. It appears that I would be able to get further along if I just try to fabricate a new chassis, cutting tubes out then cleaning /grinding everything smooth would take longer, or just part everything out and be done with it. This chassis is in such a sad state I'm not sure it would be worth anything at all.
I am across the bay from you in Hayward, if you are near San Francisco, we could get together somewhere to go over some photos, or I could come by your place and take a look at what you have.

Thanks for the kind offer
Jesus Villarreal

[Layabout]

Originally Posted by jesvilla

Layabout:
No I have not, after further disassembly and looking at it, it is bent in all four corners, and really has been hashed a bunch. It appears that I would be able to get further along if I just try to fabricate a new chassis, cutting tubes out then cleaning /grinding everything smooth would take longer, or just part everything out and be done with it. This chassis is in such a sad state I'm not sure it would be worth anything at all.
I am across the bay from you in Hayward, if you are near San Francisco, we could get together somewhere to go over some photos, or I could come by your place and take a look at what you have.

Thanks for the kind offer
Jesus Villarreal

I apologize for my delay in responding. For some reason 10/10ths didn't notify me of your response. I'm in the San Jose area & would be glad to come by & have a look. Also, please look at the next posting---it's about the updated Palliser-Winkelmann site. I was just given the responsibility for it & I'm trying to get the word out.

[Layabout]

I've recently taken over the Palliser-Winkelmann Registry (www.PalliserCars.com). I've made some substantial changes to the site (we now have Classifieds, Restoration photos, Model photos & Specsheets, etc.) & I'm trying to get Palliser Winkelmann owners to revisit the site & maybe contact me so that I can expand the database, or entice them to provide content for the site. I would like to hear from any owners---even those who are already listed in the Registry.

Conversely, if you're a newbie & want to find out about the marque, I'm more than glad to converse with you. I raced a Winkelmann WDF2 in the early 70s & now have a pair of FB Winkelmanns (WDB2) that a friend of mine I run in vintage events in California.

My email is: ldebretteville@gmail.com

[Layabout]

I thought, since this thread has gone silent for a long time, I would throw my hat into the ring regarding how many & what type of cars were built. I've been running the Palliser/Winkelmann Registry https://www.pallisercars.com/ for about 12 years & there are some common misconceptions, as well as some totally confusing issues. I also run the Palliser Winkelmann Instagram @winkelmanncars. I would add that I'm also posting to say that the Registry has been redone & anything I say here can be read on the Registry. It's been pointed out elsewhere but the nomenclature used by Palliser was 'W' for Wimhurst 'D' dor Dibley the next letter deotes the car type---'F' for Formula Ford, 'B' for Formula B, 'V' for SuperVee, & the number is the generation of the car. Here goes:

Car Production:
WDF1...41 cars
WDF2...50 cars
WDF3...unknown. Bob Winkelmann said only four or five were built with the chassis number starting at '001', however I've had cars from new number up to #029. Go figure...
WDF4....7 cars---No chassis numbers because some or all were sold as kits.

WDB1....4 cars, plus one prototype
WDB2....8 cars according to the sales sheet, but we have an unresolved duplicate in the Registry, making 9 cars.
WDB3....3 cars, though some WDB3s may have carried over to the WDB4 range.
WDB4....6 cars

WD3 (Formula 3 car)...2 cars (commonly confused with the WDF3 FF).

WDV (SuperVee)....3-6 cars

WDH1 (Hillclimb car)...2 cars

WDA 1 car (F5000 car, but a Palliser in badge & promotional material only)

Some Notes:
Vern Schuppan won the 1971 Atlantic Championship using two chassis, WDB4 Chassis 1 & WDB4 Chassis 2. There is some speculation that one of these started life as a WDB3 & that may be true. After a few races Chassis# 1 was sold to Henkie Iriawan & Vern drove Chassis# 2 for the rest of the season.
At one point Hugh Dibley drove a WDB3 at Sebring in 1970 & that car has been sometimes referred to as a WDB4---& may well have been prior to sale.
The WDB3 is the oddest car of the bunch since you can find them with what are clearly WDB2 chassis, while others are closer to a WDB4. I have some chassis photos on the Registry site with more to follow. The WDB3 is the most difficult to nail down since there really isn't a "standard" chassis. I suspect it was only ever an interim car to develop the WDB4.
The Arch Motors numbers are more or less meaningless. The only help they give is that cars manufactured after 1970 usually have the two digit year followed by the AM work number, i.e. "71/15, Cars prior to 1971 have one number.
Some car with missing AM numbers are sometimes the result od a replaced bulkhead, or some such. The numbers can be very difficult to see after years of painting or powder coating. They may also be replacement chassis by Bert Ray, or whomever.
For some of the WDB1s & WDF1s chassis plates were supposed to have been provided post-sale, but Palliser didn't follow through on some of those. I have two or three, but to trace the owners, having only the chassis plate is difficult.

If you have a Palliser/Winkelmann that is not listed on the Registry or is incorrectly listed, please let me know. There is a Contact Form on the site. Thank you