Winkelmann-Palliser

Ol'_Motorhead · 3 Jan 2004, 18:16 (Ref:826645)

I'm attempting to research the manufacturing history of Robert Winkelmann North American FF's/FB's. I'd like to know more about Palliser Racing Cars, the principals Lem Wimhurst and Hugh Dibley and any other pertinent information. Any Links, other sites, photos, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Ol'_Motorhead · 4 Jan 2004, 18:28 (Ref:827535)

I forgot to mention that they may have also made FSV's but I'm not exactly sure about that. Hope to hear from one or more of you who were around, as I was, back then. Cheers!|

|

Ol'_Motorhead · 16 May 2004, 17:13 (Ref:972653)

Hello again Chaps.
I thought I'd re-post this thread from January last since I received no replies. |

| I've read all kinds of obscure history and recollections regarding motor racing on this site. Surely someone out there can fill me in a little about this concern. I'd appreciate anything you're willing to share. Thanks again. Cheers.

allenbrown · 16 May 2004, 22:21 (Ref:972852)

Well, Formula B isn't my speciality, but I know there are people here who know lots about it. I know Palliser started in FB with a WDB1 and built about 8. Then they made the WDB2 (now 1968 or 1969) which was quite successful in the US as the Winkelmann but I don't know how many were made. There was at least one WDB3 and at least one WDB4.

I'll leave the Formula Ford stuff for someone else.

Dibley was a BOAC pilot and was living on Jersey last time I spoke with him but that was 10 or 11 years ago.

Allen

Bryan Miller · 17 May 2004, 10:50 (Ref:973166)

In the early 1970's , Motor Sport [ U.K. ] ran a series of articles called THEY MAKE RACING CARS , and the Palliser cars were one of the firms that they reported on.
There are 2 x WDF3 F.Fords in Australia, have been for a looooong time.
Sorry I am unable to quickly locate exact issue.

Bryan.

davemorganfan · 17 May 2004, 11:04 (Ref:973179)

They did F3 cars too, based largely on the FF car suitably updated. Roger Keele ran the WD31 ( I think that was its monicker) in the last year of 1-litre F3 in 1970. It wasn't bad, but suffered from a low budget and the fact that development was compromised by using components that were acceptable in FF but didn't translate too well to F3. In 1971, when F3 changed to 1600cc, there were 2 Palliser F3 cars on the track in the UK. A very attractive looking car, one was driven by Peter Lamplough (a white car) and there was an orange one driven by someone else whose name escapes me right now. Again, they weren't front runners.

Dan Rear · 17 May 2004, 13:13 (Ref:973319)

They also ran an early FF2000 in 1975, raced by Damien Magee on occasion. Must have been based on the F3 or FF I imagine.

This car was slightly updated in 1978 by Syd Fox and ran as the 'TON' (The Old Nail) very quickly. Indeed it won the main series that year up against more modern Deltas/Van Diemens/Reynards/Crossles/Dulons/Hawkes and so on.

So, though Syd Fox was always pretty good, the car itself muct have been OK too.

allenbrown · 17 May 2004, 17:18 (Ref:973588)

Quote:

Originally posted by Bryan Miller
In the early 1970's , Motor Sport [ U.K. ] ran a series of articles called THEY MAKE RACING CARS , and the Palliser cars were one of the firms that they reported on.
There are 2 x WDF3 F.Fords in Australia, have been for a looooong time.
Sorry I am unable to quickly locate exact issue.

Bryan.

Bryan

I saw that recently but thought it was in Autosport. If it was MS, then I think it was December 1970. Or do I mean December 1969? Aaargh! I'll find it this evening.

Allen

allenbrown · 17 May 2004, 19:08 (Ref:973696)

Ah yes, here it is. March 1971, pp218-219, just where I said it would be (ahem).

It was like this: in 1968, Palliser built three cars, all sold to the US for FB racing. These, I guess, were WDB1s but the article doesn't make this clear.

In Oct 68 they moved to 65 North Street, that most famous racing address, and formed Palliser Racing Design Ltd with Dibley, Wimhurst and Bob Winkelmann as directors.

By the end of 1969, they had built 42 FFs and 6 FBs (including, I presume, the 3 1968 cars). The FB cars were WDB2s according to my 1969 FB results but I'm not certain that makes sense. The article says all this production went to the US.

In 1970, they built 50 more FFs, three more FBs and "a prototype Super Vee and Formula Atlantic". They ran a couple of cars in the UK: a works FF for Peter Lamplough and a F3 loaner to Roger Keele. Bob Evans became the first UK private owner and "several" more were sold.

For 1971, Palliser offered four designs: the WDF3 FF; the WDB3 for Atlantic, FB, F2 and F3; the FSV; and the monocoque Daren sports. Wimhurst was also said to have a monocoque F2 on the drawing board; the design for the Franklen was still current and a F2-chassised hill climb car was being built for Mike McDowell.

Schuppan was due to drive a F Atlantic in 1971 and, IIRC, he won the 1971 championship with it.

Finally, the Kettlewell Motor Racing Directory says Palliser folded in early 1972 due to cash flow problems. A Palliser 742 FF2000 was built by Wimhurst in 1974 and it is this car that became The Old Nail.

Allen

allenbrown · 17 May 2004, 19:13 (Ref:973702)

Just found a reference in my notes to the hill climb car: Bryan Eccles' ex-MacDowel/Voigt/David Fyfe/Alex Brown 1971 Palliser WDH1 with 4.2 Repco (Autosport 8 Apr 1976 p59 and 1 Apr 1976 p61). Eccles crashed it very badly and injured his legs.

Allen

Ol'_Motorhead · 17 May 2004, 23:47 (Ref:973950)

Great stuff -I'm impressed!

I've owned one of those fifty 1970 FF for the last thirty years. It's currently undergoing a frame-up rebuild in Central Canada for historic racing.

I may have that issue of Motor Sport as I collect racing magazines and have several years of same from the sixties and seventies. Again, thanks for your posts.

Ol'_Motorhead · 23 May 2004, 04:24 (Ref:979346)

Checked my old M/S issues. Sadly, I must have stopped subscribing in 1970 when I did as so many others and followed the advice of "Go West, young man!".

However, I did enjoy thumbing through most of the sixties. Strangely enough I didn't find a single article on Formula Fords (e.g. Lotus 51) which were introduced then.

roger saretzki · 23 Feb 2005, 22:12 (Ref:1233934)

hi
i found a palliser a few weeks ago fitted with an capri v6 engine............
fotos avalible.
tel-fax 0049 7742 2668
rogerracing@web de
regards roger

Steve Wilkinson · 23 Feb 2005, 23:22 (Ref:1233983)

At the first ever hillclimb I went to at Doune in June 1971 Mike MacDowel won the run off in the Repco engined Palliser. I'll try to post a picture hear later.

Steve Wilkinson · 23 Feb 2005, 23:26 (Ref:1233987)

cavvy · 25 Feb 2005, 10:57 (Ref:1235485)

Do you know which Repco motor ?

David McKinney · 25 Feb 2005, 11:40 (Ref:1235531)

IIRC it was a F5000

allenbrown · 25 Feb 2005, 14:49 (Ref:1235736)

Greatly enlarged 740 wasn't it?

Steve Wilkinson · 26 Feb 2005, 11:16 (Ref:1236487)

The engine in the Palliser was a THREE litre 740 back in 1971. The engine was subsequently enlarged to FIVE litres when MacDowell transferred it to the Brabham for the 1972 season.

Tim Barry · 3 Mar 2005, 18:17 (Ref:1241416)

Len Wimhurst built a FF1600 in 1976 for Kees van der Grint to drive called the Wimhurst LP1 (LP = Len And Paul Wimhurst). I raced this car throughout 1979 and entered it for Paul Sleeman a couple of times in 1980. Subsequently sold to my dentist who took it to Ireland.

Tim Barry · 3 Mar 2005, 18:19 (Ref:1241419)

Len Wimhurst built a FF1600 in 1976 for Kees van der Grint to drive called the Wimhurst LP1 (LP = Len And Paul Wimhurst). I raced this car throughout 1979 and entered it for Paul Sleeman a couple of times in 1980. Subsequently sold to my dentist who took it to Ireland.

Len then built a FF2000 for Damien Magee and Paul Wimhurst called the Wimhurst PLP4 (PLP = Pat [Capon], Len and Paul). I raced this car for the first time at Boxing Day Brands 1979 and surprisingly managed to win the Formula Libre race, the last race of the decade! I raced it in 1980 in the national Motorcraft championship, without much success, and at Lydden where it was more succesful with a couple of wins. Len, my father, brother and myself then converted the car to Formula Talbot spec (on the promise of plenty of sponsorship money which surprisingly failed to materialise!) and used it throughout 1981 and 1982 before converting it back to FF2000 and selling it to Steve Holland for the Lydden series in 1983. I beleive the car was subsequentlt raced by Mike Mackonachie (?spelling) and was also for sale by Matthew Mortlock. I do not know it's current whereabouts but would be pleased if anyone does know!

Chris Townsend · 8 Mar 2005, 10:29 (Ref:1246465)

Rob

A bit of digging on FB Winkelmann/Pallisers
1968: 3 WDB1 built like Allen says, going to Rob Winkelmann, Dan Murphy and one other
1969: There are at least five cars in circulation, at least three of whcih are WDB2
[those of Skip Adrian, Jack Cowell and Chuck Sarich]. Other cars driven by Jerry Haynes and Stan Schooley may be WDB1. However, there may have been five WDB2 built and sold in US. We need to start examining SCCA FB results at some stage to resolve this.

1970: All of the 1969 cars appear with their drivers except for that of Schooley. The only new combination to appear is Butch Harris with an as yet unknown but swift model. At end of season Dibley shows up with the 'prototype' WDB4 at Sebring. New WDB3 in hands of Robert Winkelmann, Gregg Gosar, David Smith and Warren Flickinger.

1971: Schuppan runs a works backed WDB4 in UK Atlantic - which I'd always presumed to be WDB4-1 [the prototype] until it's sold from under him to Henky Irawian in Singapore after two races. However, Jack Cowell in S. Africa has WDB4-1 and I can't work out how it got from Singapore to him as Irawian is still running a Palliser at the same time. So: now presume Dibley sells prototype WDB4 after Sebring. It stays in US [possible owners Jerado Martinez or Karl Patton] for a while then goes to Cowell.
Schuppan's first car is a later chassis no [2?] and goes to Irawian
This is replaced by a new car debuted by Dibley in the Arco Trophy at Castle Combe in April 71. This maybe the car raced by Gillmeister or Santo in 1972

In 1971 Gillmeister's FB car in England is a converted F3 car and Santo's a converted FF.

One piece of FF knowledge. Schuppan's works car in 1970 passes to Driller Sheldon in 1972

Chris

James Murray · 8 Mar 2005, 11:10 (Ref:1246501)

Can anyone shed any light on this one, I purchased from the continent a wdf3 formula ford which had chassis pate wdf3/2 but no AM number. I sold then sold it on and have bought another wdf3 formula ford which has wdf3-2 chassis plate plus an AM number. They're both genuine cars, the first one with a traceable history on the continent from new which went to Denmark, and the second car I have traced to pre 74 in early eighties. The second car has a much wider track but other than that they're identical!!

Chris Townsend · 8 Mar 2005, 12:24 (Ref:1246570)

I think that the second car might... be one of the two F3 cars. They were entered with the designation WDF3-2 in 1970/71. That might explain the track - especially as one of these was then converted to Atlantic spec.

verglas · 8 Mar 2005, 12:39 (Ref:1246588)

I seem to recall Damien Magee running a WDF3 in F3 at the beginning of a season possibly early 80's, very late 70's. He was romping away as only he could at a very wet Thruxton, pulling away from his pursuers at an indecent rate, only to lose it in the biggest way imaginable 'out the back' on the greasy surface. He is later reported to have said that he car was so totalled that it might as well be buried. Money ran out at that point, until he re-appeared in a F5000 Lola T300/330

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