Overrated ex F1 drivers - Martin Brundle's view in the 'Sunday Times'!!

[ptclaus98]

Day by day, I'm starting to think Brundle is a very bitter man.

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by andy97

& how would history have judged Brundle if he'd got the Williams drive instead of Hill. He was strongly considered & thought he'd got it, until Frank changed his mind at the very last minute, after concerted lobbying by the Williams test team. Hill became World Champion, Brundle did not but the results (& opinions) could have been very different. We'll never know.

What if Alesi got the ride with Williams a few years later? I think the results would say that he'd have fared better than Patrese, or Brundle for that matter.

[Paradise City]

It doesn't matter how good/bad Martin Brundle was as a driver.

He's a media pundit now and even if he was an English Giovanni Lavaggi whilst driving, in his role as media pundit and as a fan of the sport he should call it as he sees it.

I think Brundle was an excellent driver but in F1 got very unlucky. Each and every year, it was wrong place, wrong time.

[Angus Theape]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

It doesn't matter how good/bad Martin Brundle was as a driver.

He's a media pundit now and even if he was an English Giovanni Lavaggi whilst driving, in his role as media pundit and as a fan of the sport he should call it as he sees it.

I think Brundle was an excellent driver but in F1 got very unlucky. Each and every year, it was wrong place, wrong time.

Brundle was a good F1 driver, but an exceptionally poor selector of cars. The point I was making was that he never had the results you would have expected in F1 from his F3 career. He was the only driver to seriously challenge Senna in an F3 car. Drives where he did perform to his ability in F3 for some reason finished up being ended by lapped cars, ie Detroit. And when he needed to perform, Spa 93, he failed. Certainly as good if not better than Alesi who basically always had the car and never lived up to his hype.

To start a real arguement. How about drivers who had the car and never rose above it to make it win. I am discussing drivers who only won with the winning car under them and never made a non winning car win.

1st candidate? David Coulthard?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by ghinzani

If Flav was a real talent spotter...

I'd suggest he was much better as a spotter of earnings potential than driving potential.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Angus Theape

Brundle was a good F1 driver, but an exceptionally poor selector of cars.

Drives where he did perform to his ability in F3 for some reason finished up being ended by lapped cars, ie Detroit. And when he needed to perform, Spa 93, he failed.

Certainly as good if not better than Alesi who basically always had the car and never lived up to his hype.

The selector bit, well he might only have had certain choices to make at any time, and if there was nothing at all available he popped off to WSPC with Jaguar.

I reckon for the races when he needed to perform, you probably mean F1 for Detroit and '92 for the Spa example?

Not really sure that Brundle was 'better' than Alesi. The amount of times Jean had his Ferrari's further up the road than they belonged (for example, Mexico 1991 was an inspired drive until he spun it out of contention), or times where they simply broke down (think Monza '94 when he was miles in the lead) meant he would have won loads more races just for Maranello.

He generally couldn't hold a candle to Prost most of the time in 1991 but then that isn't something to sniff at for any driver. I reckon he was the quickest teammate Alain had after Senna.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Angus Theape

To start a real argument. How about drivers who had the car and never rose above it to make it win. I am discussing drivers who only won with the winning car under them and never made a non winning car win.

1st candidate? David Coulthard?

Angus that's a good idea, but do you think you might fancy starting a new thread for this subject?

[ptclaus98]

Originally Posted by Angus Theape

Brundle was a good F1 driver, but an exceptionally poor selector of cars. The point I was making was that he never had the results you would have expected in F1 from his F3 career. He was the only driver to seriously challenge Senna in an F3 car. Drives where he did perform to his ability in F3 for some reason finished up being ended by lapped cars, ie Detroit. And when he needed to perform, Spa 93, he failed. Certainly as good if not better than Alesi who basically always had the car and never lived up to his hype.

To start a real arguement. How about drivers who had the car and never rose above it to make it win. I am discussing drivers who only won with the winning car under them and never made a non winning car win.

1st candidate? David Coulthard?

Laughable, as the only top car he ever drove was the 96 Benetton, and he was running away with it at Monaco. Basically he spent most of his career in also ran cars, much the same as Robert Kubica up to this point. And people still think highly of him. The guy wasn't without fault but to say he's overrated is questionable.

[Angus Theape]

Originally Posted by chunterer

The selector bit, well he might only have had certain choices to make at any time, and if there was nothing at all available he popped off to WSPC with Jaguar.

I reckon for the races when he needed to perform, you probably mean F1 for Detroit and '92 for the Spa example?

Not really sure that Brundle was 'better' than Alesi. The amount of times Jean had his Ferrari's further up the road than they belonged (for example, Mexico 1991 was an inspired drive until he spun it out of contention), or times where they simply broke down (think Monza '94 when he was miles in the lead) meant he would have won loads more races just for Maranello.

He generally couldn't hold a candle to Prost most of the time in 1991 but then that isn't something to sniff at for any driver. I reckon he was the quickest teammate Alain had after Senna.

Soory, brain fade and it was 92 at Spa.

As for Alesi and Monza 94. His great friend Nigel Roebuck even reported what he did. Alesi half selected 1st gear, let the clutch up and stripped the gear. He then repeated the action on 2nd gear. Hardly the cars fault.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Angus Theape

Soory, brain fade and it was 92 at Spa.

As for Alesi and Monza 94. His great friend Nigel Roebuck even reported what he did. Alesi half selected 1st gear, let the clutch up and stripped the gear. He then repeated the action on 2nd gear. Hardly the cars fault.

Ha ha great stuff, I bow to your greater memory Angus.

Clearly I chose the wrong example for my response to you, but there were plenty of other ocassions when something or someone ruined his chances of the top result.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by ptclaus98

Laughable, as the only top car he ever drove was the 96 Benetton, and he was running away with it at Monaco. Basically he spent most of his career in also ran cars, much the same as Robert Kubica up to this point. And people still think highly of him. The guy wasn't without fault but to say he's overrated is questionable.

Yeah and the '96 Benetton was effectively a Schumacher car that was constructed in such a way that noone else could drive but Schumacher.

[GTRMagic]

If Sir Jackie Stewart had said something similar to this, would we be questioning his credibility so intensely

[E.B]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

If Sir Jackie Stewart had said something similar to this, would we be questioning his credibility so intensely

Lets keep it to apples and apples..... I dont think anyone is saying Martin Brundle was in the league of Sir Jackie Stewart, which of course is not what you have said, but I think JYS has his critics over certain controversial statements he has made, as much as if not more than other pundits.

As for would we question it if JYS HAD said what Brundle did...... lets not forget in a similar vein within the last month or so JYS has already stated that he rates the current Formula 1 pack as the 'best ever', and believes the likes of Sebastian Vettel can be compared to legends such as Jim Clark, Jack Brabham and Graham Hill.

He copped an awful lor of criticism for that little gem. Even in this forum.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Yeah and the '96 Benetton was effectively a Schumacher car that was constructed in such a way that noone else could drive but Schumacher.

So much so that Berger, and I think Alesi shunted it heavily during the first test sessions that they drove it!

Come to mention it not many guys 'got on' with Benetton chassis' designed around Michael did they?!!!

[Angus Theape]

Originally Posted by chunterer

So much so that Berger, and I think Alesi shunted it heavily during the first test sessions that they drove it!

Come to mention it not many guys 'got on' with Benetton chassis' designed around Michael did they?!!!

Well Johnny Herbert, with assistance from Damon Hill, won twice in 95 and that is with two broken legs to one.

[Paradise City]

Originally Posted by chunterer

So much so that Berger, and I think Alesi shunted it heavily during the first test sessions that they drove it!

Come to mention it not many guys 'got on' with Benetton chassis' designed around Michael did they?!!!

Nigel Roebuck talks about it in this month's Motorsport. He was talking to Berger and said that the 96 Benetton was nuts to drive, that the car was all front end so much so it was almost like there was no rear wheels! He said, in his lengthy career, that he'd never experienced a car like it. If there is any substance to that it might half explain Schumacher's woes this year.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Paradise City

Nigel Roebuck talks about it in this month's Motorsport. He was talking to Berger and said that the 96 Benetton was nuts to drive, that the car was all front end so much so it was almost like there was no rear wheels! He said, in his lengthy career, that he'd never experienced a car like it. If there is any substance to that it might half explain Schumacher's woes this year.

That's a coincidence! ha ha..

Schu loved the front end going in first with a wobbly rear IIRC. He should still love that now?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Angus Theape

Well Johnny Herbert, with assistance from Damon Hill, won twice in 95 and that is with two broken legs to one.

Impey hated that car as well though remember. He did bloody well to go as well as he did.

The cars got more and more Schue esque from 1993 onwards. Patrese struggled, Lehto broke his neck trying to drive the thing hard, Jos and Johnny struggled and then it was Alesi and Berger.

The one thing in common incidentally about these guys is that they've all been considered overrated by people (not all of them by Brundle I must say) and I wonder if this is because of their times at Benetton!!!