The Greatest Who Has Ever Lived?

[Corktree]

"chunterer," please note that all of your selections from recent times, that is, from either personal or popular memory. That is just an observation, one which simply points out the usual problems in these sort of discussions, the distinct tendency to hone in only on the recent drivers, those who are fresh in the memories of those making comments and, therefore, to ignore any discussion of those in the murky past, that is beyond immediate memory.

There is also the issue that lacking any defined measures of evaluation or perfromance, this is simply yet another exercise in the usual forum game of "my-opinion-is-better-than-your-opinion," which rarely provides much light in spite of igniting many fires. There is nothing inherently wrong with these sorts of discussions, but they are, as mentioned, rarely as illuminating as they could be since the focus normally shifts away from the original point that may have been presented and shifts into battles between the conflicting fan clubs, often with fiery opinions to match.

If one does look at the concept that Hans Etzrodt offered, "The list is supposed to show only 'drivers who assumed the mantle of greatest of their era after the passing or retirement of the previous such person'," then one is faced with the problem of defining what is meant by "greatest." Indeed, while I would never use such a superlative, one can sense the connotation of the term in this instance as being the "dominant" or "benchmark" of those years.

Also, the listing is, once more as usual, narrowly defined as those drivers participating in what is broadly termed as "Grand Prix" or "Formule Internationale" -- or even "Formula One" -- racing, which restricts the listing somewhat. I think it is safe to say that was the intention of Hans Etzrodt when he devised the original listing. It is worth noting that he provided for some overlap for each era, that is, several drivers could be seen as the "benchmarks" on a number of occasions.

I know that Hans Etzrodt put some very serious thought into this listing, using what is a rather unconventional approach to this topic. Despite my usual lack of interest, as a rule, in such exercises, what does interest me with this approach is that, at least to a certain, it does lead one to consider the context of the timeframes being presented for each of the drivers nominated, as well as provide the segue into the zeitgeist of the eras, which could be beneficial to those whose attention is not exclusively on the present era.

[D-Type]

One name that's missing is Mario Andretti. He was certainly respected by his peers.

And I'm always inclined to feel that his premeditated action at Suzuka in 1990 disqualifies Ayrton Senna from being considered a 'great' driver.

Edit: I forgot to say that I consider the greatest was Nuvolari

[paddy]

I'd tend to put Nuvolari at the top. With Clark as his team mate. Amongst the drivers I've seen it's Villeneuve, Mansell and Senna. I'm not really a stats man as I think they're deceiving and soulless. Schumi leads on numbers but he's enjoyed the safest and most reliable time in Grand Prix history.

[Corktree]

Of course, the question never asked is: Does it really matter who the greatest was?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by D-Type

And I'm always inclined to feel that his premeditated action at Suzuka in 1990 disqualifies Ayrton Senna from being considered a 'great' driver.

Well, if you are going to 'dsq' Senna from the great driver list, how on earth can Schumacher remain on the list, given his record of admitted premeditated reckless actions, such as at Jerez with JV, plus other incidents where he has neither denied or admitted premeditated thoughts, but where Michael was at best dodgy, (Adelaide with Hill, Monaco Rascasse, Barrichello against the pit wall last year even)

By virtue of the fact that Schumacher is the only one I know as a driver to have been dsq'd from a complete season for his driving actions I see his case for non inclusion as greater than Senna. Flawed genius? Certainly. Moreso than Senna? I will settle for both being flawed in their treatment of others in their quest for personal honours.

Of course there are some that might argue that we are only judging on actual driving ability in some of these greatest threads..... Personally I feel that their flaws and capability of stooping as they did on occassions should be taken as negative aspects of their overall performances.

Originally Posted by D-Type

Edit: I forgot to say that I consider the greatest was Nuvolari

I agree.... a list of greats with no Nuvolari near the top is not a true reflection of these guys abilities.

[chunterer]

Indeed Nuvolari is often cited as one of the top 3 drivers ever......

However.....

To elaborate on the posts since my last one, which I accept was taking this away from the specific title of the thread, I would like to therefore expand (from what I know) to include who many could say were the greatest of given eras or times, as opposed to a singelton driver, or top 3's.

On that basis therefore may I suggest that we could say (and please do add in significant others) Nuvolari, Carracciola, Karl Kling? were the Kings from the 30's/40's (folks I accept my knowledge does not go all that way back so I would welcome additions!!!)

1950's
Fangio, Moss, then Ascari (head and shoulders above anyone esle through the 50's)

1960's
Clark
Rindt

Gap

Brabham
Hill
Gurney
Amon
Hulme

1970's
JYS
Lauda
Emmo
Peterson

Gap

Andretti
Reutemann
Gilles
Hunt
Scheckter

1980's:
Senna
Prost

Gap

Mansell
Piquet

Gap

Gilles (early on)
Lauda
Rosberg
Jones
Pironi

1990's:
Senna
Prost
Schumacher

Gap

Mansell
Hakkinen

Gap

Hill
DC

Noughties:
Schumacher
Alonso

Gap

Hamilton
Hakkinen
Raikkonen
Montoya

[D-Type]

Originally Posted by E.B

Well, if you are going to 'dsq' Senna from the great driver list, how on earth can Schumacher remain on the list, given his record of admitted premeditated reckless actions, such as at Jerez with JV, plus other incidents where he has neither denied or admitted premeditated thoughts, but where Michael was at best dodgy, (Adelaide with Hill, Monaco Rascasse, Barrichello against the pit wall last year even)

By virtue of the fact that Schumacher is the only one I know as a driver to have been dsq'd from a complete season for his driving actions I see his case for non inclusion as greater than Senna. Flawed genius? Certainly. More so than Senna? I will settle for both being flawed in their treatment of others in their quest for personal honours.

Of course there are some that might argue that we are only judging on actual driving ability in some of these greatest threads..... Personally I feel that their flaws and capability of stooping as they did on occasions should be taken as negative aspects of their overall performances.


I agree.... a list of greats with no Nuvolari near the top is not a true reflection of these guys abilities.

There is a possibility that Schumacher's two infamous collisions were in the heat of the moment so I gave him some slack. But Senna stated publicly that he had made the decision before the race started, ie it was a premeditated decision.

And the question on this thread says "greatest" not "best driving ability"

In the words of Denis Jenkinson "Different ..."

[E.B]

I was under the impression that Schumacher admitted the JV was premeditated and thought of in advance of the event..... as was the involvement of Norberto Fontana, one of the driver for the Sauber team Ferrari supplied engines for, who confirmed he was taken to the Ferrari motorhome pre raceand asked to delay JV if he was in a position to do so whilst being lapped.

IIRC Schu actually pleaded guilty to having made a misjudgement turning in too JV but admitted the concept of doing so had been considered, and he also apologised.

Peter Sauber denied any part in it.... but it was his drver Fontana who admitted being taken to the Ferrari m/home pre race with Todt and Schu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgfuoSFerDU is of the actual impact.... the youtube clip that shows very clearly Fontana waving MS past without delay, and then him clearly blocking JV for the next couple of corners appears to have been removed..... the clip I recall seeing had a very loosely disguised accusation from Brundle commentating, something along the lines of 'You would never guess Fontana uses a Ferrari provided engine'.

I do agree with your point re Jenkinson of "greatest" not "best driving ability". I think neither Senna nor Schumacher on the basis of their errors and misjudgements here deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as the likes of Nuvolari Clark and Fangio etc....