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Old 7 Jul 2022, 10:00 (Ref:4118533)   #46
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
In it's first season as an FIA series, the grids are larger than the first season of TCT in the UK.

Going forward, if a similar approach was adopted by TOCA then you could realistically expect the majority of the current grid to remain.
I think that's a fair assumption. Most of the current BTCC grid is made up of what I would call BTCC regulars ( be it teams or drivers, or both), so they would go with any changes made by TOCA. I would also expect that if TOCA are considering a major change to the series, they would also consult the teams about this first and use their feedback when shaping these changes.
I certainly wouldn't expect (even) Alan Gow to stand up in August and announce that "as of next season, the BTCC will be for all electric delivery vans" or something similar!
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Old 7 Jul 2022, 15:50 (Ref:4118563)   #47
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antnee should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridantnee should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
If an electric version cost the same to build and run as a NGTC car, I think they could maintain a similar grid size - if the cars could run to the same/similar race format.
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Old 7 Jul 2022, 17:33 (Ref:4118578)   #48
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porsche962fan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridporsche962fan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
electric racing is such a scam , they claim to be carbon neutral and all that crap yet they have diesel generators behind the pit garage to charge all those batteries
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Old 7 Jul 2022, 17:56 (Ref:4118580)   #49
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Originally Posted by porsche962fan View Post
electric racing is such a scam , they claim to be carbon neutral and all that crap yet they have diesel generators behind the pit garage to charge all those batteries
https://electriccarsreport.com/2021/06/fuel-cell-generator-by-hyundai-to-power-worlds-first-electric-touring-car-racing-category/
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Old 7 Jul 2022, 20:45 (Ref:4118604)   #50
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Matt K should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridMatt K should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Speaking of electric racing, not sure if you're aware, but STCC is ditching TCR ruleset and moving to 100% electric touring car racing. Wonder what it looks like and what the 'product' will be. Anyway, this could be an idea of how BTCC might look in not-so-distant future. Somehow it's still hard for me to accept the electric direction of motor industry and I'm of the view that there's a lot of propaganda in this but time to accept the irreversible.
ETCR is gimmicky but the cars drive nicely (apart from idiotic sound making it seem like racing of trams). If a traditional racing format can be combined with powerful cars, it can be quite a good show.
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Old 10 Jul 2022, 08:05 (Ref:4118830)   #51
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electric racing is such a scam , they claim to be carbon neutral and all that crap yet they have diesel generators behind the pit garage to charge all those batteries
And they use offsets for those generators which use far less fuel than if the cars were ICE.

Nothing can be perfect from day one. Eventually race tracks will have charging units and teams will use pre-charged storage packs etc.
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Old 26 Jul 2022, 16:05 (Ref:4120579)   #52
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Based on the discussion about the strength of the field in the Knockhill thread -

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Originally Posted by 3marinadrive View Post
Based on performances in qualifying, race craft, overall pace, race results etc...we broke down the regular grid (excluding changes for Butel, Parfitt etc) and split the grid into three groups;
It got me wondering whether the perceived issues with the current BTCC product come down to the quality of the grid being so strong today?

Hopefully the following will explain:

I decided to look at snapshots in time going back to 1992, and every ten years since. The main difference I can see developing over time is that the level of performance to get up into a top ten finish has become increasingly difficult to achieve.

Let's work on the assumption that the best driver in any given race will put in a performance that is graded as being near perfect (95%+). Moving down the grid, the drop off in level compared to that 95% is broad.
So for instance - in 1992, the likes of Soper or Leslie only need to put in a fairly decent performance and they can get into the top five or even take a podium, because the depth of quality is small.
In 2002, Hughes and Leslie were able to get strong results and the required level of performance could be assessed as relatively low (compared to perfection).
By the time you get to 2012, if you have a poor starting place on the grid, someone like Tom O-C is having to get past the likes of Newsham, Wrathall, Foster or Smith to get up near the podium. With all respect to those drivers, the potential for the best drivers to make up places is still high.

Now - in 2022, the field is extremely close. The opinion expressed seem to suggest that 10-14 drivers are all of the quality to be a regular podium visitor. This means that if a driver such as Cammish or Shedden finds themselves towards the back of the field, the level of performance they need to get to the front is exceptional.

In 1992 - a driver in a top car performing to just 80% of the car's potential could expect to be challenging for a top five, or even podium.
In 2022 - the same level of performance will see you struggling at the bottom end of the points.

The margins are so small today, that the potential for regular changes of position is slim. And drivers have to be so certain of a move before attempting, because they are unlikely to get many more chances if they fail to make the pass stick.
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Old 26 Jul 2022, 18:12 (Ref:4120589)   #53
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porsche962fan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridporsche962fan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
proper BTCC racing and proper cars, just notice how much contact around the wheels there is and they can get away with it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNNJiA25D-o

Last edited by porsche962fan; 26 Jul 2022 at 18:23.
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Old 26 Jul 2022, 18:53 (Ref:4120595)   #54
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Originally Posted by porsche962fan View Post
proper BTCC racing and proper cars, just notice how much contact around the wheels there is and they can get away with it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNNJiA25D-o
Interesting to read some of the forum comments from around that time.

Regarding the race itself - which shows that not everyone thinks it was proper racing:
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Originally Posted by Hazard View Post
madness going on out there...red flagging everything.

Nasty crashes for Hines & Proctor. Decimating the field somewhat.
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Originally Posted by rdjones View Post
Race 2 again things got bit pressional again, but Muller controllled things as he does.

And in terms of the overall series - the tendency to think the past was better also rings true:
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Originally Posted by Grahame West View Post
The main problem with btcc is the lack of cars on the grid - such a shame when it used to be a good series.
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Originally Posted by pitcrew View Post
am i the only one that feels that the BTCC has lost its sparkle compared with the good old days!
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Originally Posted by kmchow View Post
The BTCC lost it's sparkle back in '00 when it dropped down to 3 works manufacturers.

The height of ST globally was probably '96 and '97. It hasn't recovered. Perhaps things could have worked out a bit better if the BTCC adopted the S2000 rules right with everyon else?? OTOH, I guess the BTCC again wanted to set the tone/rules for everyone to follow like they did back in Class 2/ST days.

Regardless, we can at least look fondly back to the '90s and continue to play our Toca Touring Cars 2.

I think it will always be the case for each generation - they will naturally think that the era they first started watching was the best that the series has ever been. The wave of nostalgia tends to cloud the judgement when you consider things like the BTCC.
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Old 26 Jul 2022, 19:14 (Ref:4120597)   #55
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porsche962fan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridporsche962fan should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
it shows how low it sunk , if I put a super tourer clip you would say huge manufactuers budgets , but of the BTCC / S2000 era this can't be said , was worse than super tourers but still more entertaining than today
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Old 3 Aug 2022, 18:39 (Ref:4121712)   #56
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so Matt Neal describes it as "motorsport becoming a qualifing formula " indirectly suggesting lack of overtaking ?!
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Old 3 Aug 2022, 21:47 (Ref:4121720)   #57
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so Matt Neal describes it as "motorsport becoming a qualifing formula " indirectly suggesting lack of overtaking ?!
But is that a bad thing?

He says it is motorsport as a whole, and also says 'the racing is so close and the grid is so competitive' which sound like positives to me.

For those who want to read the full article - https://www.touringcartimes.com/2022/08/03/matt-neal-motorsport-becoming-qualifying-formula/
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Old 3 Aug 2022, 23:46 (Ref:4121723)   #58
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
But is that a bad thing?

He says it is motorsport as a whole, and also says 'the racing is so close and the grid is so competitive' which sound like positives to me.
I know you'd argue with your own shadow, but at the cost of indulging you, yes, it does matter - at least longer term.

The BTCC has been built on close-racing, a degree of unpredictablity, and most crucially, the personalities and personality clashes that have developed due to this.

There's so little agro these days, so little that writes column inches outside of the dedicated specialist press.

Plato & Muller's duel in 2001 somewhat mitigated an otherwise dire season. Neal & Plato, whilst a rivalry that cetainly got tiring in the end, produced endless column inches and attention from outside the dedicated fanbase. I bet if you ask the man on the street for a BTCC driver, if he could name one, it would be one of them.

At the moment the series is probably close to being the most competitive it has ever been. But the drivers are almostly completely devoid of showmanship. It's OK when some of the contenders are, and that's always been the case. Shedden and Turkington have always been dull. But when they're pitched against equally dull clones like Ingram, Sutton, Hil, Cook, Lloyd and Morgan, it makes that side of it a bit dull.

I never thought I'd say this, but the series misses a Rob Collard type character. Or even a Jeff Smith or Rob Austin. I know they weren't everyone's cup of tea, but they could be relied on to provide some sort of talking point every now and again. I look at this years lin-eup and there's not a single driver that I'd say I'd expect to make for an exciting race.

And it's not a matter of just being related to increased professionalism. In it's heyday you had the likes of John Cleland, Anthony Reid, Matt Neal and Jason Plato who'd liven up any race they happened to be in.
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Old 3 Aug 2022, 23:55 (Ref:4121724)   #59
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Oh, and don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with being a straight-forward, professional racing driver. The series has always had plenty, it's the contrast that's lacking currently.
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Old 4 Aug 2022, 06:43 (Ref:4121741)   #60
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I know you'd argue with your own shadow, but at the cost of indulging you, yes, it does matter - at least longer term.

The BTCC has been built on close-racing, a degree of unpredictablity, and most crucially, the personalities and personality clashes that have developed due to this.

There's so little agro these days, so little that writes column inches outside of the dedicated specialist press.

Plato & Muller's duel in 2001 somewhat mitigated an otherwise dire season. Neal & Plato, whilst a rivalry that cetainly got tiring in the end, produced endless column inches and attention from outside the dedicated fanbase. I bet if you ask the man on the street for a BTCC driver, if he could name one, it would be one of them.

At the moment the series is probably close to being the most competitive it has ever been. But the drivers are almostly completely devoid of showmanship. It's OK when some of the contenders are, and that's always been the case. Shedden and Turkington have always been dull. But when they're pitched against equally dull clones like Ingram, Sutton, Hil, Cook, Lloyd and Morgan, it makes that side of it a bit dull.

I never thought I'd say this, but the series misses a Rob Collard type character. Or even a Jeff Smith or Rob Austin. I know they weren't everyone's cup of tea, but they could be relied on to provide some sort of talking point every now and again. I look at this years lin-eup and there's not a single driver that I'd say I'd expect to make for an exciting race.

And it's not a matter of just being related to increased professionalism. In it's heyday you had the likes of John Cleland, Anthony Reid, Matt Neal and Jason Plato who'd liven up any race they happened to be in.
I think that's a little unfair (but this is only my opinion). For me, the battling between Sutton and Hill in races 1 & 2 at Knockhill (for example) certainly livened things up for me. Plus, I'd say that Plato would be more well-known outside of the BTCC fanbase, but as a BTCC driver due to his appearance on the Fifth Gear TV programme.
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