Another barmy decision

[kartingdad]

I was at Oulton yesterday when 3 crew members (not kids larking about) were told to leave the pit wall during the Alfa race.

The reason - They were all wearing yellow polo shirts which could have confused the drivers!!!

Whats all that about. I bet they wouldn't throw the entire Jordan crew off the wall.

What about the other teams present who were wearing red, blue, black and green tops?

Its about time these bloody race officials thought about what they are doing. They make traffic wardens look good!!

Stuff like that really annoys me, its so petty and thoughtless.

[RTH]

Write to the organising club and make an official complaint with a copy to the MSA - nothing will ever change unless people speak out in the strongest possible terms. Pit lane marshalls now seem to think they can behave like the Gestapo

[Woolley]

Quick question. Have you ever stood trackside with only the driver's sight of a yellow flag to protect you? If you have you realise that you don't want any risk of the driver catching yellow out of the corner of his eye and wondering if that was a flag. You want him to know that it was and react accordingly straight away. Any other flag colour you can allow for leeway - reaffirm what he saw at the next post.

I hope this explains the reason for such decisions. It's for safety reasons.

And yes, a crowd full of Jordan flags is a problem, expecially when kind Eddie has given them all whistles - the marshals' danger alert signal.

[diz]

Sorry Andy [oops, I mean kartingdad], I must take the blame for this. Going back about 10 years, whilst operating out of the old Garage 10b [block booked for the season], I questioned why two people - they were not marshals, I recall they were Red Cross - were standing at the Old Hall marshals post wearing fluorescent yellow jackets and were right in the drivers line of sight. Whilst collecting practice times, I asked the Clerk of the Course, in passing, if he would be lenient if any drivers were reported for "overtaking under yellow people". When we went to the pit wall for our next session, we all looked very professional kitted out in our red Demon Tweeks jackets, but word had filtered down from Race Control. We were asked to remove our jackets, as we would confuse the drivers by looking like red flags. This led to various remedies during the season. We wore the jackets inside out, we wore black bin liners over them with our heads poking through etc. We asked whether the works Alfa Team would all have to remove their red overalls at the forthcoming TOCA meeting and were assured they would. As if?
I have seen people told to remove red shirts and stand bare breasted on the pit wall - sadly not female!
On a similar tack, what is proper fire? We had to go out of the back of our garage to have a smoke, which was where we were made to store our jerry cans. Woe betide anybody having a crafty fag in the garage, this was considered a hanging offence, and still is. But - and this is a good but - we used to have a kettle on the go, to keep us stocked up on hot brews. This kettle was on a calor stove. When we questioned our Chief pit lane marshalling friend about what was the difference between having a fag and naked calor gas flame in the garage, we were told that that was different. There was a no smoking rule in the garages! Said Chief pit marshal used to keep his kit bag, butties, flask etc., in our garage, was a friend to us, but still made our lives hell.
Also worthy of a mention is the tale of the Formula E Ford driver reported for smoking in the pit lane. He had to wait for his rollocking from the C of C, as he was out on circuit. Said C of C duly returned to administer the rollocking - glowing cigar clasped firmly between his lips, venue pit lane! Sadly C of C and driver are no longer with us.
I could continue with these tales of silliness all afternoon, but 'er indoors is calling me for my Sunday Roast.
Finally Andy, Stuart should have been doing the K of K 1600 races. He would have been a potential winner in my eyes.

[kartingdad]

Well Diz, most drivers are aware that there is no marshalls post on the pit wall. And if they cant tell the difference, I would suggest they give up driving and buy a white stick.

[KayBee]

Originally posted by kartingdad
Well Diz, most drivers are aware that there is no marshalls post on the pit wall. And if they cant tell the difference, I would suggest they give up driving and buy a white stick.

Actually at Oulton there is. It's by the gate that leads onto the grid prior to where Chief and Deputy Chief flag stand.

I believe that drivers' Final Instructions say that if you are going to be on the Pit Wall don't wear either red or yellow and that nobody under 16 is allowed in the Pit Lane.

I have, however, never had it clarified if under 16 competitors are allowed there when they are not racing. They are allowed in garages.

[kartingdad]

Well thats not the pit wall then is it?

[Adam43]

Originally posted by KayBee
I believe that drivers' Final Instructions say that if you are going to be on the Pit Wall don't wear either red or yellow and that nobody under 16 is allowed in the Pit Lane.

A few years back I remember a friend of mine being told to do something about his red top.

Maybe it is an Outlon thing.

I don't specifically remember anything in the final instructions for Oulton. Can't find a copy right now. However it is a year since we used the pitwall at Oulton for a race.

[Piglet]

Originally posted by KayBee
I have, however, never had it clarified if under 16 competitors are allowed there when they are not racing. They are allowed in garages.

The under 16's when competing is always an interesting one! As is spotting those competitors that look about 12 but are actually 16+!!

Under 16's are technically banned from garages as well as the pit lane, but the commonsense approach is usually to allow children to remain in a garage as long as it appears to be a safe option. The problem is that one day a child will get injured in a garage and then we'll have to explain to the lawyers why we hadn't stopped them being in there!!

The flip side is we get accused of being "Gestapo" like.

Competitors believe pit marshals are there to make their lives difficult and to stop them having their guests in - until someone gets hurt when it then becomes the marshals fault for not protecting them!! It's called lose/lose!!

[Muttley]

Its about time these bloody race officials thought about what they are doing. They make traffic wardens look good!!

Stuff like that really annoys me, its so petty and thoughtless.

Actually it isn't petty and thoughless, there is always a reason behind the decision being made.

kartingdad, you also seem to think pit marshals have nothing better to do than going around telling people to remove their jackets.

I suggest then that when a driver thinks a session is being stopped because of you wearing an inappropriate coloured item of clothing, that you explain to them why.

[greenamex2]

I have seen marshalls do some fairly petty things (eg letting off a cars fire extinguisher in practice that stopped near their post and being so concerned about the risk of fire they just ambled back to their post without even talking to the driver let alone getting them out of the car) but in this instance have to agree with the marshalls.

Most drivers have enough trouble seeing yellow flags without having to worry that it might just be a team trying to make a fashion statement/raise their visible presence.

Every time I had stopped on circuit and talked to the marshalls they have all generally been a good laugh and really into their racing. Please tray and give them the benefit of doubt when possible.

[alfa57]

I've also been racing a number of times when people standing on marshals posts (not sure if they're marshals or just hangers on) have seen a bit of drizzle and put on their dayglo yellow jackets they probably pinched from the local council. That really was a bit confusing.

Heard about the Oulton thing years ago. Some of our team had to strip to the waist a few years ago when they were told to remove red T shirts.

[Dave Brand]

Take a look at:

http://www.brsccnw.com/brsccteam.htm

Scroll down to the third picture from the bottom on the right-hand side.

[neilwaynesmith]

Originally posted by Denis Bassom
I have seen marshalls do some fairly petty things (eg letting off a cars fire extinguisher in practice that stopped near their post and being so concerned about the risk of fire they just ambled back to their post without even talking to the driver let alone getting them out of the car)

NO marshal would intentionally let off a cars fire extinguisher unless circumstances dictated it E.G. a nice fire blazing away...

If an in-car extinguisher has been let off, it's probably because it is a double-pull system linked with the electric cut-out. In these circumstances it is not 'petty', it's a 'mistake'. You know, kind of like the 'mistake' that put the driver off the track in the first place........

Pit marshals are not Gestapo, If we do appear 'petty and thoughtless' it is usually to people who have been breaking the, necessarily strict safety rules in the pitlane, like smoking, bringing children into the pitlane, inviting all and sundry, friends, relatives etc to join them on an already crowded pitwall... I could go on.

The simple fact is if a car is in the pits during a session, it's for a reason. Either 1: a driver change. In which case there is a lot of rushing around, cars coming in and out, risk of collisions etc... or 2: It's broke. Could erupt in flames, throw out various hot fluids etc, or is being repaired with mechanics rushing around. Either way, it's not a place where rules can be broken. And not a place for all and sundry to watch from.

Yes some marshals do occasionally go too far and treat the pitlane like their own personal fiefdom. But then again so do some drivers, team owners and hanger-ons....

[neilwaynesmith]

Originally posted by Dave Brand
Take a look at:

http://www.brsccnw.com/brsccteam.htm

Scroll down to the third picture from the bottom on the right-hand side.

I think the first four pictures amply demonstrate why the pit marshals have to be so strict in their area. Just think how many children, guests and hanger-ons could have been barbequed there...

[kartingdad]

You marshalls that are replying are missing the point.

There isn't a driver here that has condoned the decision to remove 3 normal people from the pit wall.

four drivers who saw the incident in question were just incredulous, and they are the guys who are affected by it, not the marshalls.

And even if a driver was confused by the sight of someone wearing a yellow top, he's hardly likely to become a danger himself, is he?

[jase]

Originally posted by kartingdad
You marshalls that are replying are missing the point.....

No we're not, a post was made after yours callin us Pit Marshals "Gestapo", apart from being offended by such a remark, the subsequent posts are refering to that remark.

What about the other teams present who were wearing red, blue, black and green tops?
Not colours that are going to be perceved as a "DANGER" signal are they!

However, you did say "Its about time these bloody race officials thought about what they are doing. They make traffic wardens look good!!" which has been responded to.

[ascarracinguk]

lets put it like this kartingdad....if you were a driver and thought you saw a yellow or red flag on the pit wall...you were in the lead for the first time in your career and slowed down to obay the red or yellow flag...when getting back to the pits you found out that it was actually someone wearing a yellow or red top...how would you feel...PRETTY PEEVED ME THINKS!!!!...and youd probably be the first one to complain to those SO CALLED traffic wardens for not shifting the people off the pit wall wouldnt you!!!....I WONDER!

[goforit500]

Gee thanks for this thread - That was my Cossie getting fried !! Thats the first photgraphic evidence I've seen....

True though it was a very, very dodgy couple of minutes....Anyone around was in some danger as the fire didn';t want to go away and the temps under the botten must have been approaching enought to explode the shock cans and similar.....

[greenamex2]

neilwaynesmith - I was saying what I saw. If you choose not to believe me then that is your perogative.

Funnily enough this was at the same circuit but a different corner where some other bad example of a marshall felt the need to perform some highly unofficial hand gestures at me because he believed I had done something wrong when in fact it was due to the second most moronic and dangerous piece of marshalling I have experienced in my FIFTEEN years of racing.

If you have a brief look over my original response I would hope that you would find that over 99% of the time I think marshalls are jolly good chaps and chappesses that justifiably take pride in performing a thoroughly professional job whilst still treating as an enjoyable hobby.

You are ALWAYS going to experience the odd idiot, be they a marshal, driver, spectator or politician.

kartingdad - Sorry but I am a driver and I can see the reason for the decision although perhaps lack some of the background behind it (eg were they given the chance to change etc).

I don't how people could be 'topless' on the pit wall. My wife got 'warned' when she just had short sleeves!!!

[kartingdad]

Well what colour top IS socially acceptable to the marshalling fraternity then?

I have to say this is a pathetic argument anyway. I have been involved in motor racing since I was about 5, so thats 44 years, and whilst there are some superb marshalls, there are some traffic wardens as well.

And as far as a driver being confused about people and flags, thats a load of cods. If the driver cant tell the difference, then he needs his eyes testing.

[Peter Mallett]

I'm aware of this from Silverstone as well. My team shirsts are red and we wewre told to cover them up whilst on the pit wall.

However driver's are made aware of the flag positions during the warm up lap. If you then confuse a red shirt in a non marshal's post location with a marshal's flag you deserve to lose the race.

[Barny]

I agree with you Kartingdad, my girlfiend was told to leave the pit lane at Cadwell becuase she was wearing a black & yellow jacket,there was no way she could of been confussed with a flag (!).
Yet some marshal's overalls particularly wet weather gear is more red than orange, and on more than one occassion I have had to do a double take to make sure that it is an an offical rather than a red flag.

[mark ch]

Well, barny when was the last you went shopping for an orange coat for the high street, we are not issued with coats nor get expences or colour charts and yes it can be a bit hit and miss.. some can be a little yellowly... some a little red and after a year outdoors will be another colour.... but we do try and don't wear distinct yellow or red colour.. the observers/clerks would ensure that...

And if all the "traffic wardens" didn't turn up because they're fed up with being abused for a hobby. Would that please you.... No racing...

[Sheila M]

This is an opportunity for mediation I believe. To all you people who think us pit marshals are like gestapo can I suggest that you all try running a busy pit lane (usually short handed).

Whilst I appreciate the problems that can arise by teams wearing "inappropriately coloured" clothing, I would never suggest that someone left the pit wall because of it. I may move them further away from an obvious flag point or ask them to wear the jacket inside out. I would NEVER ask anyone to remove a shirt as that would leave them bare chested, which in my view is worse than wearing something the wrong colour.

What you all have to remember is that pit marshalling is stressful in that we are dealing with people all the time, whilst trying to do our "proper" job. If any of you who have complained about pit marshals are at Mallory Park this Sunday, please come and spend some time in the pit lane with me and I'll try and explain things in a more rational and logical manner so that you can perhaps begin to understand why we do what we do.