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Old 3 Jul 2019, 19:17 (Ref:3915743)   #1276
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Sounds like F1 has truly been 'fixed' in New Zealand then......
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Old 3 Jul 2019, 19:49 (Ref:3915746)   #1277
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Yes now we get to watch the best racing series with evenly matched teams racing and passing each other like it should be.
And best of all a Kiwi is one of the top drivers....Scott Dixon.
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Old 5 Jul 2019, 16:13 (Ref:3916038)   #1278
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Alternative driver perspective regarding the "ease" of driving current cars...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...years/4488869/

My reading of this is that... If the car is good, it's easier to drive. That it's more about having a good or bad car and less about the era of the car. So... car and setup specific and not era specific. As teams get better and better and design and setup, the cars should be easier to drive. Which should be an obvious conclusion.

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Old 6 Jul 2019, 03:23 (Ref:3916079)   #1279
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Alternative driver perspective regarding the "ease" of driving current cars...

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...years/4488869/

My reading of this is that... If the car is good, it's easier to drive. That it's more about having a good or bad car and less about the era of the car. So... car and setup specific and not era specific. As teams get better and better and design and setup, the cars should be easier to drive. Which should be an obvious conclusion.

Richard
However when the winning car sets the fastest lap of the race 5 seconds off its pole time then it has to be easier to drive than it was on the limit during qualifying?

Conservation of tyres and fuel leads to lift and coast, which is not racing, or am I missing something?
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Old 6 Jul 2019, 10:12 (Ref:3916110)   #1280
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I think the problem is it’s got a little bit over the top in terms of penalties and track limits. As well as the fact the car design has gone the wrong way in terms of aero, ruining the racing.
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Old 6 Jul 2019, 11:56 (Ref:3916130)   #1281
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I think that driving the cars less than their capabilities to conserve tires and fuel is a real issue, but ANY car driven less than 10/10ths is easier to drive.

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Old 6 Jul 2019, 12:37 (Ref:3916136)   #1282
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"Fixing" F1 is always going to be a circular discussion. To me the more pertinent question should be "What is F1". Once that is answered then "fixing" it becomes a lot clearer as many of the "solutions" can be ignored as they aren't F1.
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 01:40 (Ref:3916233)   #1283
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"Fixing" F1 is always going to be a circular discussion. To me the more pertinent question should be "What is F1". Once that is answered then "fixing" it becomes a lot clearer as many of the "solutions" can be ignored as they aren't F1.
This is a great point!

My starting point would be:

World Driver's Championship.

Everything else is merely supplemental and should be treated as such.
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 02:05 (Ref:3916234)   #1284
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Well that’s a good start, because we have that now. Even the teams try and secure that first.
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 03:48 (Ref:3916238)   #1285
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Yes now we get to watch the best racing series with evenly matched teams racing and passing each other like it should be.
And best of all a Kiwi is one of the top drivers....Scott Dixon.
Spec car series that doesn’t have one driver remotely close to the top half of the F1 field.Oh yes and the cars were 17 seconds a lap slower around COTA than F1 which makes them slower than F2.
Not even close regardless of closeness that doesn’t seem to be that much of a thing on a lot of road and street races.
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 04:17 (Ref:3916239)   #1286
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Well that’s a good start, because we have that now. Even the teams try and secure that first.
Sue Adam, and this is why we have muppets sitting in the 2021 strategy meetings saying that they fear that if the drivers become an important performance differentiator, driver centric, then the driver's salaries will get out of hand?
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 04:25 (Ref:3916242)   #1287
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Give Dixon, Rossi, Hunter-Reay, Newgarden, and perhaps a smattering of the others, an actually decent car on the F1 grid, and I'd put them up against any current F1 driver.

We knew IndyCar was going to be slower at Austin, (duh!). Then again, that's in no small part because it was designed for cars that make the most absurd amounts of downforce, and only those specific cars (pretty much just LMP1 and F1 presently). Bringing out yet another d*ck-measuring stick isn't helping anybody.

Yes, F1 has the World Drivers' Championship, but at the same time, it's not the only FIA World Championship that has a Drivers' Championship on offer; so there has to be more to it than that. Also, it's the Constructors' Championship that actually pays the money. But anyway, I don't think you could just plunk someone from F1 down in WRC and expect them to automatically do well there, or vise versa.

To the Drivers' Championship, I'd add something like:
---The series featuring the fastest open-wheel, open-cockpit racing cars on paved circuits, excepting oval speedways.
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 05:04 (Ref:3916248)   #1288
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Give Dixon, Rossi, Hunter-Reay, Newgarden, and perhaps a smattering of the others, an actually decent car on the F1 grid, and I'd put them up against any current F1 driver.

We knew IndyCar was going to be slower at Austin, (duh!). Then again, that's in no small part because it was designed for cars that make the most absurd amounts of downforce, and only those specific cars (pretty much just LMP1 and F1 presently). Bringing out yet another d*ck-measuring stick isn't helping anybody.

Yes, F1 has the World Drivers' Championship, but at the same time, it's not the only FIA World Championship that has a Drivers' Championship on offer; so there has to be more to it than that. Also, it's the Constructors' Championship that actually pays the money. But anyway, I don't think you could just plunk someone from F1 down in WRC and expect them to automatically do well there, or vise versa.

To the Drivers' Championship, I'd add something like:
---The series featuring the fastest open-wheel, open-cockpit racing cars on paved circuits, excepting oval speedways.
They were very quick to ban Seb Loeb from competing, precisely because he would have disrupted the pecking order of the little F1 club imo.
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 06:53 (Ref:3916254)   #1289
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Give Dixon, Rossi, Hunter-Reay, Newgarden, and perhaps a smattering of the others, an actually decent car on the F1 grid, and I'd put them up against any current F1 driver.
You may be right - but we simply do not know . Some drivers excel in different disciplines (Mansell in CART , J Villeneuve in F1) but others don't - Zanardi was great in F3000 and Indy cars but hopeless in F1.



The main thing I remember about Rossi was wincing as he drove a Lotus 49 around COTA at Austin . He was a stranger to the art of the heel and toe - it was ugly. And yes , he isn't unusual in that , I suspect Hamilton hasn't used stick shift since F3
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 12:22 (Ref:3916303)   #1290
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This is a great point!

My starting point would be:

World Driver's Championship.

Everything else is merely supplemental and should be treated as such.
If it going to be primarily a driver's championship is it necessary to remove all artificial aids and remove all radio comms from the team and let the driver get on with racing the car using his talents and brain? It sure is an arguable point as now he receives a huge amount of help from the pits to manage the car.
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 13:09 (Ref:3916308)   #1291
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I’m liking all this, more driver emphasis, agreed. Let’s have a little context though, or rather look how far we need to go?

Drivers are still a differentiator nowadays. I give you Hamilton and Verstappen v. Bottas and Gasly. Cars are the primary differentiator, as they always have been, I give you Lotus 79, Lotus 33, Williams FW14b, McLaren MP4-4, Ferrari 500, etc... and of course every other year to a lesser degree.

We want the best drivers. Other drivers from others series may be better than some F1 drivers. I can’t see how this is any different from any other era of F1. To limit some of this, because eventually the objections to this reached a critical mass, we have the current system that limits this. Good intentions.

So what exactly are we asking for? How would we know this has been achieved? Are we asking for something that F1 never been?

I’m all for it, but I’m conscious as to what Johno is asking. Perhaps this is one reason why it is hard to achieve.

Who should the people running F1 listen to? Not the teams, not the drivers and certainly not (directly) the fans. They should listen to no one. However they have measure were they indirectly listen to others. Don’t listen to what the fans want, they are not a collective voice, are not coherent and don’t actually know what they want. Make changes and see if the people come to the tracks or turn on the telly. Don’t listen to the teams, but make sure they are healthy and you have a decent number or quality entries. Listen to the drivers, but don’t worry about ignoring them.

Last edited by Adam43; 7 Jul 2019 at 13:28. Reason: sp
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 13:23 (Ref:3916313)   #1292
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So what exactly are we asking for? How would we know this has been achieved? Are we asking for something that F1 never been?
Yes.
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 14:47 (Ref:3916318)   #1293
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doing things in a new way is not inherently bad though.

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Who should the people running F1 listen to? Not the teams, not the drivers and certainly not (directly) the fans. They should listen to no one. However they have measure were they indirectly listen to others. Don’t listen to what the fans want, they are not a collective voice, are not coherent and don’t actually know what they want. Make changes and see if the people come to the tracks or turn on the telly. Don’t listen to the teams, but make sure they are healthy and you have a decent number or quality entries. Listen to the drivers, but don’t worry about ignoring them.
but if we have to do things while keeping with the patterns of the past, then for a period of time F1 did well under a 'supremo' and prior to 2000? (or whenever BE secured 100 years of F1's commercial rights) the sport provided great entertainment, balanced driver skills with technological progress, teams and suppliers flourished by earning more say and money etc.

could that work again?

we cross our fingers ad hope that this one person has the right vision and the will to see it done...after all dictators get things done right?
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 17:27 (Ref:3916338)   #1294
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I think too often F1 over complicates itself. They should find simple solutions to whatever problems they have, instead of putting in quick fixes like DRS. Then it would be easier to watch and more potential for excitement
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 17:51 (Ref:3916347)   #1295
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I’m no DRS fan (although judging by the last race’s rating a lot of people are ), but one thing it is is a simple solution to a problem.
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 17:56 (Ref:3916349)   #1296
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A simpler solution though would be to reduce downforce
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 19:26 (Ref:3916373)   #1297
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Not really, Again, I find that an oversimplification, and honestly, I find the assessment inaccurate as the influence of the aero is consistently overblown. Frankly, aero has become a proxy to blame everything that's wrong with a series on it, and that's obviously a load of you know what.

Anyway, as you go faster, aero gives bigger returns, unlike every other area of the cars, so the engineers will always go for the aero, because the laws of physics dictate it as a necessity to go faster by a greater margin.

Also, the lawyers and insurance adjusters would declare an aero-neutral car to be an unjustified hazard. It's an exaggerated example, but you watch in the racing games how those '60s F1 cars will roll and tumble, because they don't have the drag and downforce production to provide a self-damping mechanism.

And even putting all that aside, the tracks are now designed for extremely high levels of downforce. Taking the downforce away, without re-working the tracks first, will just create a much greater number of harsh compression and expansion zones thanks to the accordion effect, which will increase field spread substantially by default, and thus hurt the racing that way.

I wouldn't expressly limit downforce. I'd actually allow the teams to make it in cleaner ways, and institute a battery of wind tunnel tests, with the requirement of an aggregate minimum L/D, a minimum aerodynamic efficiency, something like, say, 4.0:1. So, if you're making 4,000 lb of downforce, you have to do it in such a way that you make no more than 1,000 lb of drag.
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 20:46 (Ref:3916395)   #1298
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A simpler solution though would be to reduce downforce
Simple to say, much more difficult to actually achieve in a way that is effective. That is the point that is trying to be made.

Not that I disagree with the principle.
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 21:36 (Ref:3916404)   #1299
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Old 7 Jul 2019, 21:38 (Ref:3916405)   #1300
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“Who wouldn’t watch that?”

Well, it is too reliant on aerodynamics.
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