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Old 10 Dec 2011, 17:50 (Ref:2998113)   #1251
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Originally Posted by The Badger View Post
I reckon he is replacing Boullion ? But they need someone quicker than Primat !!! Obviously a money issue here .
Yeah I believe the money is an issue. I haven't really formulated an opinion on Primat as to how quick he really is.

I wonder if Aston had been factoring in his sponsorship money into next year's plans? Blow for them if so.
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Old 10 Dec 2011, 22:06 (Ref:2998202)   #1252
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A driver like Primat should be able the score a Factory seat. Could Rebellion be traning grounds for Toyota?, or Primat just REALLY upset with the Amr team?
Daddy's checkbook can; and magically a new sticker will appear on the Rebellion cars. We don't really know how fast he is, but it would be widely known if he was something special or had set the world alight in lower formula. Apparently he's a nice person, but I seem to remember he's the only driver who spun/damaged? the AMR-One during its very short time on track.

Last edited by Félix; 10 Dec 2011 at 22:12.
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Old 10 Dec 2011, 22:12 (Ref:2998203)   #1253
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Well I suppose if he is a safer pair of hands than JCB and he brings funding then it's a tough one to turn down for Rebellion.
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Old 10 Dec 2011, 22:41 (Ref:2998208)   #1254
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It's not a sport anymore when our 3 most promising privateer teams in P1 involve drivers who are there because their dad distributes Pepsi products in Europe, runs a Swiss bank or more simply because they own the team, the car and the manufacturer. I call it raising a white flag.

10 years ago, Pescarolo and Oreca entered 2 (or even 3) cars with only pro and young promising drivers. We've seen what Oreca chose to do this year and Pescarolo could well do the same.
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Old 10 Dec 2011, 22:46 (Ref:2998210)   #1255
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Originally Posted by Spyderman View Post
Perhaps I misunderstood, but I was under the impression that your point was that they were the same entity.
Anyway, as I have mentioned before, there will be technology and platform sharing for some projects (road going) when they make sense and are beneficial to both companies and the Group.
For information purposes, it is important to clarify that the Porsche -VAG deal involves Porsche SE and not directly Porsche AG (the actual car manufacturer).
"The Porsche Automobile Holding SE is responsible for the stock of the operating subsidiary, Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, and for the investments in Volkswagen AG. With the new structure, Porsche ensures that the autonomy and independence of the traditional Stuttgart-based company remain fully protected. This is the main purpose of separating holding and operating activities. At the same time, the holding also represents a single company responsible for the management of stock."- Porsche
Thanks for clearing that up.......
Apart from the racing side of things being separate entities from the manufacturing and sales of their cars, what about the two Porsche employees who are in the inner sanctum of Audi racing at the moment, ie, Messrs Bernhard and Dumas. Surely they must be sharing some of their knowledge with their primary employer, and I am not suggesting anything underhanded, just a sharing of the know-how between the fellow VAG team mates. Even with Audi's talk of their future plans, I hold the belief that they will be leaving LMP racing before Porsche return in 2014.
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Old 10 Dec 2011, 23:13 (Ref:2998219)   #1256
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It's not a sport anymore
It's always been this way. Rides are being bought in every form of motorsport from the top on down. Nothing new, just be thankful people want to spend money in sportscars at all.
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Old 11 Dec 2011, 04:28 (Ref:2998273)   #1257
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Originally Posted by porsche91722 View Post
Thanks for clearing that up.......
Apart from the racing side of things being separate entities from the manufacturing and sales of their cars, what about the two Porsche employees who are in the inner sanctum of Audi racing at the moment, ie, Messrs Bernhard and Dumas. Surely they must be sharing some of their knowledge with their primary employer, and I am not suggesting anything underhanded, just a sharing of the know-how between the fellow VAG team mates. Even with Audi's talk of their future plans, I hold the belief that they will be leaving LMP racing before Porsche return in 2014.

My apologies if my explanation is confusing, but a look at the current holding structure (my next post) should make it less so.

Bernhard and Dumas are being loaned by Porsche to Audi at the request of Audi and the drivers.
Secondly : it is not like Porsche has absolutely no know-how in LMP racing. Not that long ago, their LMP2 was giving the LMP1's (Diesels) something to think about on the short circuits.
It is also rumored that Porsche let the Audi engineers have a "good look" around their aborted LM2000 car before Audi developed their R8 as part of the agreement for VAG co-developing the Cayenne, This took place way before the Porsche-VAG tie in. Those that know Porsche and its history, will know that there has always been strong ties and deals with VAG. (
shared parts on the 356, Porsche 914, Cayenne, the Porsche+Audi American commercial deal, etc)
Also - When it was agreed that Dumas and Bernhard be loaned to Audi, there were no plans for a Porsche LMP1 entry.
Finally, I suspect the 2014 rules may render much of their "gained" know how obsolete.
There are always drivers changing teams in racing. This is nothing new.

Last edited by Spyderman; 11 Dec 2011 at 04:57.
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Old 11 Dec 2011, 08:08 (Ref:2998301)   #1258
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Originally Posted by Spyderman View Post
My apologies if my explanation is confusing, but a look at the current holding structure (my next post) should make it less so.

Bernhard and Dumas are being loaned by Porsche to Audi at the request of Audi and the drivers.
Secondly : it is not like Porsche has absolutely no know-how in LMP racing. Not that long ago, their LMP2 was giving the LMP1's (Diesels) something to think about on the short circuits.
It is also rumored that Porsche let the Audi engineers have a "good look" around their aborted LM2000 car before Audi developed their R8 as part of the agreement for VAG co-developing the Cayenne, This took place way before the Porsche-VAG tie in. Those that know Porsche and its history, will know that there has always been strong ties and deals with VAG. (
shared parts on the 356, Porsche 914, Cayenne, the Porsche+Audi American commercial deal, etc)
Also - When it was agreed that Dumas and Bernhard be loaned to Audi, there were no plans for a Porsche LMP1 entry.
Finally, I suspect the 2014 rules may render much of their "gained" know how obsolete.
There are always drivers changing teams in racing. This is nothing new.
The R8 was actually ahead of the Porsche LMP2000, in the design progress, so Audi couldn't have gained so much, if the rumor is true.
However you are right with Audi Porsche sharing many ties, and the LMP / SUV deal is a good example on (almost) "in-house" regulation.
The Joest team is also a strong tie in between Audi and Porsche, and none the less Tom and Allan who secured Porsche it's last two overall victories at Le Mans.

But again so much depends which team Porsche choses (or not) to collaborate with, if they will use a manufacture for the chassis (Dallara!?), Drivers and so on.
I do not see that much sharing of technology between Audi and Porsche, as they might decide to run two different technologies (Diesel and Petrol!?), to take advantage of the any regulation preferences (like some say diesel has).
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Old 11 Dec 2011, 08:34 (Ref:2998309)   #1259
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Originally Posted by Spyderman View Post
Here is the current holding structure:
My point had nothing to do with the road cars its was about the P1 projects. It makes no sense for them not to share some costs collectively until the point comes where the designs diverge to represent their respective brands. This could apply in manufacturing, purchasing, marketing, operations, personnel and ultimately strategy.

It remains to be seen (if we ever do - because they are unlikely to admit it) how much sharing goes on but I cant believe there will be none
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Old 11 Dec 2011, 09:22 (Ref:2998317)   #1260
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@ Mal : OK , I 'm not going to be able to convince you otherwise, so we will agree to disagree. I maintain that motor-racing projects are largely independent and classified and there will be little or no sharing (especially as there may be two different concepts presented)
@CTD - We are in agreement .

Last edited by Spyderman; 11 Dec 2011 at 09:29.
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Old 11 Dec 2011, 12:45 (Ref:2998391)   #1261
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My point had nothing to do with the road cars its was about the P1 projects. It makes no sense for them not to share some costs collectively until the point comes where the designs diverge to represent their respective brands. This could apply in manufacturing, purchasing, marketing, operations, personnel and ultimately strategy.

It remains to be seen (if we ever do - because they are unlikely to admit it) how much sharing goes on but I cant believe there will be none
One of the only examples i can think of where two brands of the same "company" raced against each other is the Peugeot vs. Citroen in the WRC. When that happened nothing was shared, and they ran as two completley seperete teams.
I see this more likely with Porsche and Audi, than a cooperation.
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Old 11 Dec 2011, 13:19 (Ref:2998402)   #1262
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I'm thinking Porsche will show up with something completely different from Audi, so that they basically can't share anything.
Doesn't Porsche have a so called "diesotto" engine under wraps? Combine that with a hybrid system, and that is tech they are the only suppliers of.
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Old 11 Dec 2011, 15:49 (Ref:2998436)   #1263
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One of the only examples i can think of where two brands of the same "company" raced against each other is the Peugeot vs. Citroen in the WRC. When that happened nothing was shared, and they ran as two completley seperete teams.
I see this more likely with Porsche and Audi, than a cooperation.
Bentley and Audi
Maserati and Ferrari
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Old 11 Dec 2011, 17:11 (Ref:2998460)   #1264
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Bentley and Audi
Maserati and Ferrari
The Audi team retracted when Bentley went full swing.
And there was no real secrecy about the Bentley victory being "manufactured".

The Maserati - Ferrari i don't know
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Old 11 Dec 2011, 17:14 (Ref:2998463)   #1265
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The Ferraris the MC12 raced against were mostly the Prodrive-built 550s, which were a bit of a rogue project without the official blessing of Ferrari.

There might still have been a few 'official' 575s around, but those were never really competitive, so I am not sure that that's a good example.
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Old 11 Dec 2011, 17:15 (Ref:2998464)   #1266
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And Bentley-Audi is actually a good argument for technology sharing - the Bentley had a modified Audi engine after all.
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Old 11 Dec 2011, 18:01 (Ref:2998475)   #1267
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And Bentley-Audi is actually a good argument for technology sharing - the Bentley had a modified Audi engine after all.
But they where never real competitors!
Bentleys main attempt was fielded after Audi redrew.
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Old 11 Dec 2011, 19:11 (Ref:2998493)   #1268
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the Bentley had a modified Audi engine after all.
I believe, only the first year.

Whether a car is competitive or not is irrelevant, they were still two brands of the same company racing against each other.

Plenty of times in North America we have seen Pontiac vs. Chevrolet, Ford vs. Mercury, well into the past now...
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Old 11 Dec 2011, 19:37 (Ref:2998506)   #1269
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VAG's boss said he had no issue with brands competing against each other, in fact it was inevitable as they considered F1, Le Mans, DTM, WRC and WTCC the only suitable series.

Premium brands Porsche, Bugatti, Bentley and Lamborghini's only options are Le Mans or F1, VW, Seat and Skoda will be looking at WRC or WTCC, while Audi can span both.

P1's advantage is it offers the possibilty to enter different technologies so this gives some sporting and marketing seperation.
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Old 12 Dec 2011, 13:23 (Ref:2998785)   #1270
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Bentley and Audi
Maserati and Ferrari
SEAT and Skoda in WRC - 1999 ish
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Old 13 Dec 2011, 09:31 (Ref:2999085)   #1271
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The Ferraris the MC12 raced against were mostly the Prodrive-built 550s, which were a bit of a rogue project without the official blessing of Ferrari.

There might still have been a few 'official' 575s around, but those were never really competitive, so I am not sure that that's a good example.
Wasnt the main reason the 575 were not competitive was that the MC12 was Ferrari's main focus at the time? Amongst other things.
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Old 14 Dec 2011, 16:56 (Ref:2999752)   #1272
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More speculation than rumour, but with Colin Kolles parting company with HRT will he find his way back to Sportscars in any way?
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Old 14 Dec 2011, 17:08 (Ref:2999764)   #1273
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More speculation than rumour, but with Colin Kolles parting company with HRT will he find his way back to Sportscars in any way?
if in past he had the money to buy 2 expensive and detuned r10, surely can buy a pair of lola chassis and engines forniture too!
little OT, i've read at ultimatecarpage.com that the engine of the 458 gt reaches max power at 6250RPM, expecting a revlimit close to 6500 i guess! can be this true? the high rev direct injection engine of road 458 becomes a low rev simil-american v8 one in the 458 gt? .-. i sent some email asking for information to some driver (guy cosmo, rob bell etc...) but none replied (well for sure i didn't hope for a reply, but to try is free), is there some people well informed here?
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Old 14 Dec 2011, 18:06 (Ref:2999795)   #1274
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http://www.lemans.org/en/races/24h/u...rers_5866.html
Seb Loeb talks about his yearning for some new speed at Le Mans, but he says he's not ruling out an appearance with one of the manufacturer teams. Maybe Porsche will hire him?
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Old 14 Dec 2011, 18:07 (Ref:2999796)   #1275
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http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/artic...-2011-success/
Also, Falken Tires is still sticking with 1 car in the ALMS (even with an expanding Indycar program), but they're considering a long-term Le Mans effort. It wouldn't be next year, but possibly 2013 and beyond. Who knows, if there's actually rain if they come...
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