[LM24] Top Speeds: Le Mans

[Adam43]

I'm not sure which of those is scarier!

[GTfour]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think there a Spyker there in 2004?

There was one there in 2003 and so was the Goh car.

There is no mention of anyproblem at all. http://www.autosport-atlas.com/article.asp?id=23389

Ofcourse,ofcourse it was 2003. My mistake.
But think about it,these Audi's were really very,very though cars. I've seen the R8's hit barriers or concrete walls on several ocassions one of which was between Indianapolis and Arnage corner. The impact was so great it would've certainly totalled any normal car,but the thing was virtually unscathed! It didn't even go in for a check up...

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by GTfour

But think about it,these Audi's were really very,very though cars. I've seen the R8's hit barriers or concrete walls on several ocassions one of which was between Indianapolis and Arnage corner. The impact was so great it would've certainly totalled any normal car,but the thing was virtually unscathed! It didn't even go in for a check up...

This does not prove it happened though. And unscathed? You could tell they had hit something! The just fixed it by changing half the car! Which is impressive.

Did no-one else see this then? No other car, no spectator, no marshal, no TV. We have a good deal of marshals on 10-10ths who do the 24 hours. And you are accusing the ACO of covering this up and Goh too, you are suggesting thy knowlingly put people at risk. This is serious stuff.

I can find no report of this whatsoever of even a hint. I need to find some more reports of the morning warm-up, but so far nothing. I'm happy to concede if proven, but until then the accusation must be defended as false with no proof.

Sorry it is still hearsay, at best.

What was the support race in '03? Round about then we used to watch warm and the support race from Indianapolis. *off to check*

[ss_collins]

I'm pretty sure there was an R8 flip too - but I heard it was at night and it was a Porsche driver who saw it. Not sure of the year.

[Adam43]

Two of them then! Everyone except me has seen one, are we sure they weren't UFOs?

[Obi Offiah]

Originally Posted by John Turner

Just to add a bit more history to this, and before the chicanes were put in:-

1) During practice for the 1963 race, Phil Hill was clocked at 319.6 kph (198.6 mph) in the Aston Martin Project 215, and that was with less than 350bhp
2) During the 1970 event, Vic Elford in the Langheck version of the Porsche 917 recorded 383 kph (238 mph) with about 600bhp.

According to Peter Morgan's 'Porsche 917 The Winning Formula', Jackie Oliver recorded a speed of 396kph (246mph) down the Hunaudieres in 1971 in a 917L

Obi

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

What was the support race in '03? Round about then we used to watch warm and the support race from Indianapolis. *off to check*

It was the first(?) Legends race in 2003. We had Nick Mason's gorgeous Ferrari which sadly retired after a really good dice with Willie Green in the Ligier, Ray Bellm drove (and span I believe) a Gulf liveried GT40, and the Shelby Cobra's were very loud!

This flip during warm-up in 2003, I also heard absolutely nothing about it. We were standing on the banking on the outside of the Dunlop corner for the first twenty minutes then walked back down the hill to opposite the Audi Pits for the remainder. My memory's not the best, but I have no recollection of any unexpected activity in the Audi Sport Japan pit. I just don't understand why such an incident would be hushed up, nor how it has been so successfully hushed up for the last three years. I'm very, very doubtful about this..........

[John Turner]

I can find no refrence to the flip either in Teissedre/Moity book for 2003 either.

[EspritS3]

I do recall rumours of this R8 flip - from 2002 if I remember rightly. I was at the track listening to Radio Le Mans during first qualifying I think. The Goh Audi suffered a big crash (following a tyre blow-out?) on the run to the first chicane and took no further part in that session.

I didn't see this, but I heard the crash reports on RLM, which were later reported as a rumoured flip observed by a GT driver (might well have been the Spyker as it was there in '02). This was later thoroughly denied by Audi/Goh, and there was no confirmation from any GT driver, or any other observer. Possible the rumours developed from flying bodywork following impact with the barriers?

The crash seemingly badly affected Goh's weekend, qualifying well down, way off the pace of the works cars, and having a fairly poor race finishing behind the Bentley and ORECA Dallaras, though admittedly without as much factory support as in later years, and with a mixed bag of drivers.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by EspritS3

I do recall rumours of this R8 flip - from 2002 if I remember rightly. I was at the track listening to Radio Le Mans during first qualifying I think. The Goh Audi suffered a big crash (following a tyre blow-out?) on the run to the first chicane and took no further part in that session.

I didn't see this, but I heard the crash reports on RLM, which were later reported as a rumoured flip observed by a GT driver (might well have been the Spyker as it was there in '02). This was later thoroughly denied by Audi/Goh, and there was no confirmation from any GT driver, or any other observer. Possible the rumours developed from flying bodywork following impact with the barriers?

You're right, 2002 makes much more sense. Dalmas had a big off late on the Wednesday evening. I'm not sure that the cause was ever confirmed. I'm not sure Dalmas knew what happened for that matter. The car just snapped on him and spun. But Spyker were indeed there and Norman Simon was one of the drivers.

[Obi Offiah]

Regarding the R8 flip, I can't recall the year but I remember during the Eurosport commentary Martin Haven mention that the car got sideways and very nearly flipped over, but not quite. I assume the car probably got airboure with either the left or right side pointing skywards.

Obi

[GTfour]

It's good to finally get to know more details of this incident. It's allways been very vague what really happened.
There are just to many people who were talking of a big mishap to this R8.
And allthough it is ofcourse hearsay as long as nothing has been proven by eyewitnesses or images,you never know who knew who at what places.
Maybe the marshall posts at that point were all french?...and the ACO were good friends with these guys? Who knows.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by GTfour

It's good to finally get to know more details of this incident.

More details? It is the consistency that strikes me! Everyones version is different. Very different.

It's allways been very vague what really happened.

And now it is clear?

There are just to many people who were talking of a big mishap to this R8.

This offers no proof whatsoever. It is false logic. It sounds like a dodgy suggestion on an internet forum! Or an old wives tail. A silly example, but many people talk that the only man-made object you can see from space is the Great Wall of China. This incorrect, but it doesn't stop people talking does it?

And although it is of course hearsay as long as nothing has been proven by eyewitnesses or images never know who knew who at what places.

Agreed, but accept fact rather than hearsay. I am not saying it didn't, rather I am saying that there is no evidence to show that it did. And presented with this we have to put any alleged flip in context. Which has been done by most here, fortunately.

Maybe the marshall posts at that point were all french?...and the ACO were good friends with these guys? Who knows.

This is precisely what I am talking about when I express concerns. To try and justify this you are inventing a serious allegation. However not only are you now accusing the ACO of covering this up you are now accusing marshals of doing it to. This is my objection with your postings. It is not fair on those involved, yet it is so easily said with no clarification or context on an internet forum. How many others. Have I been bought by the ACO too? Or maybe you have been paid by someone with an ACO grudge to spread these rumours. No I don't believe that, but you see my point?

I am intrigued, but I need more than this. And I am uncomfortable with the ease that the lack of information is disregarded and the ease at which allegations are banded around. It is the scourge of the internet.

[John Turner]

Absolutely right, Adam. First of all it was supposed to have happened in 2004 but that was easily refuted; then it was possibly 2003, but 'no' it seems not. Now, it seems 2002 could be the year. It's all so vague and it has to be a pretty big cover up by quite a lot of people to create this situation. As you say, we are not saying it didn't happen, merely that we have so far seen no real evidence. It certainly hasn't been cleared up, at all!

[Adam43]

I had a few minutes and did some digging and I have found something. It is all a cover-up! Well actually not, unless the ACO forgot to tell Autosport. I presume this is what we are talking about:
http://www.autosport-atlas.com/article.asp?id=19416

Originally Posted by Autosport.com June 15th, 2002

Audi driver Yannick Dalmas has spoken for the first time about his huge crash on Wednesday evening, during which his Team Goh-run Audi R8 became airborne but did not flip over, as was rumoured around the paddock over the last 24 hours...

and still is it seems!

Originally Posted by Dalmas

I was full throttle and the car went sideways, The car only flew a little bit, maybe one metre [in the air]. I hit the barrier and spun once or twice, I don't know.

Originally Posted by Ullrich

Yannick said it didn't fly and the footage shows it didn't fly, I'm a bit annoyed at these suggestions to the contrary, because we've worked very hard to make a car that is safe.

It seems Wolfgang would be quite annoyed at some of these posts.

A perfect example of careless easy talk here. A sizeable crash it was. However we have gone from this to a flip that covered up by the ACO and marshals. And I was considering contacting the Guiness book of records to get it entered as the longest flight by a car at over three years!

[Adam43]

A little more detail:

It was the first chicane as EspritS3 mentioned. In fact EspritS3 is pretty close to what happened EspritS3 (and Obi Offiah), I apologise for not paying more attention to your post, it just got lost in the other posts - so difficult to tell the difference between fact and fiction which is the danger. As said it was also Wednesday night, not warm-up.

Here are a couple of extracts from Club Arnage's 2002 Wednesday night.

Originally Posted by Club Arnage

...
23.15 Reports that Dalmas has gone off in the Goh Audi at the first chicane on the Mulsanne.
...
23.45 one of the Konrad Saleens has had a close shave with a prototype at the first chicane on the Mulsanne and has now parked with the Goh Audi.
...

http://www.clubarnage.com/lm02/wed_pract_2.html

The important thing here is that there is no evidence of a cover-up. As I said I was uncomfortable with that libelous accusation.

[EspritS3]

Thanks for that Adam - been looking for a report from qualifying to confirm my recollection of 2002. As you say, it's too easy for a rumour to develop into an "event" without any facts to back it up, so I'm glad this puts it to bed.

But back to the original point of this thread - it would be a terrible shame to place futher restrictions on engine power and top speed in order to keep lap times around 3:30 - if only aerodynamic downforce could be uninvented! Certainly for me, a large reason for my interest in sportscar racing was the speed. Back in the late 80s, Group C cars were the fastest (in a straight line) beating even indycar oval machinery, and for me then, fastest was the best! Be it clips from Steve McQueen's Le Mans with the Gulf 917s/Ferrari 512s howling round the Mulsanne Kink, or Jaguar XJR-9 in Silk Cut colours flashing past the bar/restaurant before where the first chicane now is, these images formed my interest, and I now struggle to hide my dissapointment with current cars barely hitting 200mph. Only wish my first visit to Le Mans could have been pre Dunlop Chicane, pre Mulsanne Chicane, pre excessive catch fencing - thank heavens I made it there before they ruined the viewing from the Restaurant des 24 Heures on the run to the first chichane.

But lets face it, its still (for me) the best track in the world, with the most varied and interesting cars - we don't have it that bad.

[GTfour]

I stand corrected. And withdraw any accusasions I might've made.

[Adam43]

I was worried about the lawers!

Fears of a new chicane are strong at the moment though. Especially on the way down to Indianapolis

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Fears of a new chicane are strong at the moment though. Especially on the way down to Indianapolis

Adam, I thought we put this one to bed pre-Le Mans..............??!!!!!

[Adam43]

My point was more that people are still edgey about it and passions are running high. Sorry.

[GTfour]

My fear also,for I still don't think much of the ACO. It seems they wanna make Le Mans 100% safe,which is not only rediculous but impossible as well.
I mean,how long ago was the last fatal crash at Le Mans? Isn't that allmost ten years ago? Driving your own car in everyday traffic is more dangerous then racing on a track nowadays...
Don't get me wrong,I absolutely regret fatal accidents in this sport but isn't that a risc that "comes with the package" ?

[dj choc ice]

personally i hate the A.C.O they have changed the track so much that you cant really get close to the cars when they are racing and going past at high speed just look at the run down to the esses i used to love it when it was a straight run down but now its a huge s bend with an endless sea of gravel to boot and you get a rollocking from the gendermes if you go and spectate on the mulsanne or on the run down to indianapolis which is a must if you go to lemans and the ecology award as well and slowing the cars down is really starting to tick me off quite a lot recently.

i just done get the green exology award for the race, its motorsport A.C.O were the idea is to build the fastest car by any means necesarry motorsport is not who has the cleanest and most enviromentally friendly car the A.C.O with that in mind might as well be called greenpeace or as i call them greenboogers for stopping racing at monza since all they seem to be is a bunch of moaners with nothing better to do and have no idea what the hell they are on about!!

phew sorry guys got that off my chest and i wont mention noise restrictors as i would not like to use lots of bad language as noise restrictors in racing are the bain of my life and my worst enemy

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

noise restrictors in racing are the bain of my life and my worst enemy

Then you're a lucky man that this is the worst thing you have to worry about!

[JAG]

'i just done get the green exology award for the race, its motorsport A.C.O were the idea is to build the fastest car by any means necesarry motorsport is not who has the cleanest and most enviromentally friendly car the A.C.O with that in mind might as well be called greenpeace or as i call them greenboogers for stopping racing at monza since all they seem to be is a bunch of moaners with nothing better to do and have no idea what the hell they are on about!!'

No use building the fastest car for Le Mans, without great fuel consumption.

Any motor racing that does not have a relevance to real world motoring will be extint in the next 15 years.

'and the ecology award as well and slowing the cars down is really starting to tick me off quite a lot recently.'

Other than this year, when we saw the most powerful (since restrictor racing), quickest, most fuel efficient, and most technically advanced prototype ever!