Monaco - Obsolete: discuss

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Purist

I'm NOT convinced that the tire changes under red really ruined anything. Button was napping on that restart. And it looked like Alonso made a mistake on lap 76 or 77, given how the gap to Vettel opened up BEFORE the German set his best lap on the last lap.

I think the issue at the hairpin was guys, particularly Hamilton, not being the least bit alongside going into the corner, but trying to angle in to the middle, and just about t-boning the guy ahead of them. Also, on Hamilton, I'm a bit suspicious that there was a slight amount of contact with Massa in the tunnel; they were damn close together regardless.

And they really should open up Ste. Devote by moving the curb to immediately outside of the pit exit lane.

We'll never know but without new tyres it would have been very interesting to see how Vettel would have coped as his tyres were really degrading when the red flag came out and Alonso was all over the back of him "like a rash", as the late James Hunt would have said.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by Purist

Button was napping on that restart.

That's true. It amazes me Formula 1 drivers are so bad at restarts. Alonso was napping a bit too.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

That's true. It amazes me Formula 1 drivers are so bad at restarts. Alonso was napping a bit too.

Could it be ? Or just trying to clear their minds from the pressure...

[Purist]

Remember though, the "newness" of even Button's tire set had to have worn off by the time of the red flag. As old as Vettel's tires were, he had survived the hardest part of that stint, when the gap in performance between his and his opponents' tires would have been the greatest. The longer the run went, the smaller the performance gap between the top three, and the more stuck in to Vettel's rhythm and pace Button and Alonso were going to be.

I have to say, Glock I think it was, in the Virgin, really was ridiculous in how much grief he gave the two Mercedes at the chicane.

And having thoroughly watched the GP to the end, I must say that overtaking backmarkers really was NOT the issue some have tried to make it out to be. As for the incident that eventually triggered the red flag, the driver of the Toro Rosso was NOT paying adequate attention. Sutil's difficulties were quite apparent BEFORE they reached La Piscine. And, yes, Petrov was kind of caught out, but I can't imagine what he thought he'd accomplish going to the outside there, let alone thinking there would be enough space for another car out there.

I'm just amazed the top three managed to squeeze through that without getting caught out.

Also, it was almost comical how many of the "top" team pit crews absolutely blew their stops at Monaco. You just wonder where the wires got crossed, and why so many teams were getting it wrong all at once.

[gttouring]

Originally Posted by McArthur252

As a spectical it is un-matched, as a race track-

Although still "the jewel in the F1 crown", with multi-billions being MISspent at Abu Dabi et al, .

Opinions ladies and gentlemen?

There i fixed it.
The 'desert' races are pretty bad- dull ugly places, Yas Marina circuit being an exception at least visually.
Monaco is magic and a test of the teams and drivers motivation skill and preparation.
they can install active barriers maybe like airbags on track if necessary but this place is GrandPrix Racing.
if it was off the calendar- i bet a non points race would be held and every one would show up- even if it was last years car with new liveries, just to win it and keep the tradition alive.

[GerardWon]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

That's true. It amazes me Formula 1 drivers are so bad at restarts. Alonso was napping a bit too.

Yeah, they should make em do a few NASCAR races.

[Born Racer]

Welcome to Ten-Tenths, GerardWon.

[fomoco]

Yes it's old, yes it's tight, yes it has al those things. If I had a choice, between a Desert Race, A track that offers no testing of a drivers skill, dull boring racing, then chop Monaco. If you want to see some great restarts, not only the driver , but the team , stratagerys, pit stops, then go to Monaco.

Agree the Armco fencing and othe rthings, but , this is what test the best drivers in the premier cat of motor sport.

Take this away, and you will end up with F1 years ago, 20 starters, 10 finishers, taxi rank racing.

Monaco brings out the best in drivers & teams. Decision's as drivers, decisions as teams, look at the last race, Vettel down positions, Weber down, they still came home 1 and 4.

Thats it was racing about. To me if they culled Monaco, they would kill one of the best races, and places to go, although I haven't been there yet, It is on my Bucket List.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Purist

Remember though, the "newness" of even Button's tire set had to have worn off by the time of the red flag. As old as Vettel's tires were, he had survived the hardest part of that stint, when the gap in performance between his and his opponents' tires would have been the greatest. The longer the run went, the smaller the performance gap between the top three, and the more stuck in to Vettel's rhythm and pace Button and Alonso were going to be.

Before the red flag, Button had changed onto a set of tyres which he was expecting to finish the race on. According to the BBC commentary, just before the read flag Vettel's tyres were just about to 'fall off the cliff' - a 3rd phase of the tyre life at which point degradation suddenly becomes very dramatic and grip/performance is much reduced. Alonso was on slightly younger tyres than Vettel. So, regardless of how Button performed at the restart I think your view of how the race would have finished without Vettel and Alonso changing tyres on the restart grid is a bit optimistic. I am sure Vettel would have been passed by Alonso and Button. Whether Button would then have passed Alonso is less certain, but I think quite likely.

[Marbot]

Agreed. Vettel was getting to the point where no matter how he looked after his tyres, they were going to lose performance rapidly. Alonso was all over him even before that 'phase' had begun. Button was just waiting for the almost inevitable crash or badly judged overtake.

The problem with making it so they have to remain on their original tyres at the restart is what if Vettel had been around half a minute ahead of Alonso and Button when the red flag came out?

[Marbot]

Apparently, Vettel's tyres would have lasted.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/2...d-have-lasted/

Whatever, it was certainly good to see a race in Monaco where the order of the podium was in some doubt well into the race. The tyres alone are reason enough to keep Monaco on the calendar.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The problem with making it so they have to remain on their original tyres at the restart is what if Vettel had been around half a minute ahead of Alonso and Button when the red flag came out?

I guess the same thing happens with a Safety Car incident - any lead built up is lost. I don't think fresh tyres really addresses that - but it did more or less guarantee Vettel a win which he almost certainly wouldn't have had due to a dodgy RB strategy. I've just checked the pit-stop data and Vettel was expected to do 62 laps on his second set of tyres and Alonso 44 laps on his third set of tyres - so Alonso's tyres were 18 laps younger than Vettel's. Button had just 30 laps to do on his fourth set of tyres, and whilst they were Primes rather than Options, they would surely have out-performed the worn-out Options on the cars in front of him.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Marbot

The problem with making it so they have to remain on their original tyres at the restart is what if Vettel had been around half a minute ahead of Alonso and Button when the red flag came out?

What about it? That's racin, you deal with it.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Matt

What about it? That's racin, you deal with it.

Yes!

[Oldtony]

Originally Posted by phoenix

I've just checked the pit-stop data and Vettel was expected to do 62 laps on his second set of tyres and Alonso 44 laps on his third set of tyres - so Alonso's tyres were 18 laps younger than Vettel's. Button had just 30 laps to do on his fourth set of tyres, and whilst they were Primes rather than Options, they would surely have out-performed the worn-out Options on the cars in front of him.

I wonder if the RBR strategy was as dodgy as you seem to think.
Sauber have been getting much better tyre life which seems to be attributed to the "hollow wheels" trick. It seems that RBR might have adopted the same type of Oz wheels starting Barcelona. So maybe the stategy was based on information that wasn't quite as apparent as you assume.
Meanwhile back on topic the rules about red flag rebuilds doesn't in any way affect the decision on whether Monaco has become redundant.
I still say it is vital as it set one end of the technical spectrum for which F1 cars must be designed.

[bella]

Originally Posted by Oldtony

I still say it is vital as it set one end of the technical spectrum for which F1 cars must be designed.

i agree entirely.

from a technical point of view, what would change if they did take it out?