Tyres - The Great Debate!

[MGDavid]

didn't this whole closed shop / single supplier / skyhigh prices thing exist with pre-war tyres until Blockley spotted a gap in the market and promptly filled it?
Sure I read an article last year perhaps in MS or Octane about them? Maybe they could be approached to discuss opportunities and possibilities?

[DaveGT6]

Originally Posted by Thurner_fan

Just out of historical interest, does anyone know exactly when Ms were introduced? Was it pre-66?

According to a certain well known motorsport historian posting on another forum, the M section was available from 1964 although this was relating to tyres on F1 cars.

[terence]

Originally Posted by morninggents

A few years ago (late90s/early00s) Goodyear made a historic race tyre though not the variety of sizes made by Dunlop. Does anyone know if they are still available?

Perhaps an alternative supplier (Goodyear?) would bring some competition and drive down costs for competitors. I know this is a restricted market but it's growing and lower prices through there being two suppliers may entice other historic race series to mandate early racing spec. tyres.

Ah,the Blue Streak! Excellent tyre,even in the wet,far superior to the Dunlop. Shame Goodyear dont go into production with them again.
JEC do have a deal going with Vredestein,its not out of preference they use them.

[SZRacer]

Remember having a brief chat with Julian Majzub where he said he was planning to introduce a 15" tyre for '50s/60s cars, if demand was there.

Guess the demand is there, it's the distribution that's the issue!

Originally Posted by MGDavid

didn't this whole closed shop / single supplier / skyhigh prices thing exist with pre-war tyres until Blockley spotted a gap in the market and promptly filled it?
Sure I read an article last year perhaps in MS or Octane about them? Maybe they could be approached to discuss opportunities and possibilities?

[turbster]

Originally Posted by skentellytubby

Very nice car by the way Paul. Goes a bit doesn't it!!! Did you have problems near mid-way?

Thanks and yes it goes great considering it's my first full engine build.. Forgot to put more fuel in after having the engine running for ages while we were waiting to practice, ran out with 3 laps to go chasing 1st, fun race though!!

Meant if there's a problem in general re tires, not aimed at you..

[SZRacer]

This reminds me of my experience on 'modern sticky' tyres.

I was interested to hear that Michelin had reintroduced their TB15 (late 70s rally) tyre a couple of years ago. Seeing as it was available in a size that fit my wheels, albeit in a not-very-period-looking 60 profile, and seeing as I was doing one race at the Silverstone Classic which allowed them, I fitted them for one of my two races. The other race was done on Dunlop Ls.

Now, on my not very fast 50s technology car, the difference on the Silverstone GP circuit, was an astonishing 6 seconds(!), mostly down to massively reduced braking distance.

The flipside?

After the race I noticed all my suspension bushes (rubber) were shot, and one wheel bearing was as well. Coincidence? I think not...

Originally Posted by skentellytubby

I'm not suggesting there is a problem, it's just the experience has told me it's not for me.

Cost has nothing to do with it, believe me I struggle to afford to race more than most. My Dunlops will "have" to last until the middle of next season. If I wear them out I stop racing, thems the breaks.

On Sunday I was rooted firmly on the tail of a car that everyone knows to have 'tail out' handling and it was not moving around at all. I just see that as a bit of a shame, as going fast is only part of the equation. He was murdering me through Craner!

I'd rather race less but get more smiles and daft historic tyres give that to me (and I've tried my car on verious things before setting it up for Dunlop histos)

It's no biggy

[terence]

BTW, Hoosier make a tyre thats very similar to the Dunlop,just not allowed over here for use in Historic's!

[Moosehead]

Goodyear do still make the Blue Streak and is readily available in the US but only in larger sizes (from what I can see). Price for a 5.50 x15 approx $240 each.
Hoosier Vintage TD treaded in 5.50 x15 around $220
Fair bit cheaper than Dunlop!

[morninggents]

Just remembered that when the Goodyear Blue Streak was around 10 to 12 years ago they were only distributed in Germany, not the UK, for some reason.

[zefarelly]

Anyone tried the new M and L wets?

[Peter Mallett]

That'll be another 1k then. Kerchingggggg!

[GrahamH]

One other aspect to consider is that the Swinging 60s cars can be quite highly modified under the skin in comparison to an Appendix K car, in terms of engines, brakes and suspensions.

I ran a 105 series Alfa GTV on modern Yokohamas and modern Dunlops for quite a few years, and I can assure everybody that it was both very sideways and huge fun. Now If I'd put a watts linkage on, that would have made a huge difference to the sideways aspect.

As for the modern rubber wearing out suspension components, I never had a problem with that either on the Alfa or my Fulvia before that, although I did have a fair few of the bushes in "heavy duty" rubber or that blue nylon stuff.

[zefarelly]

15 years ago you'd see tin tops with cracks all over the shells where std old cars had been run on modern rubber

you never see that now on any cars whatever the tyres, just goes to highlight how historic histrionics are

[terence]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

Anyone tried the new M and L wets?

What,the hand cut one's.?

[R D P]

Originally Posted by SZRacer

Remember having a brief chat with Julian Majzub where he said he was planning to introduce a 15" tyre for '50s/60s cars, if demand was there.

Guess the demand is there, it's the distribution that's the issue!

There are 15" sizes available according to their webpage :http://www.blockleytyre.com/page2.htm

And discounted, too.
But, I am not sure about the 5 block profile for 60´s cars.

[fangio]

The Dunlops are too expensive and the FIA has given them a complete monopoly without negociating the costs; it's the FIA that should and could get the prices down.
I think there should be an alternative; in the past we used the Goodyear Blue Streak and they were great.

I don't think too modern tyres shoudl be used; the Yoko's have far too much grip for a lot of cars considering their suspension.
The only acceptable tyre of reasonably modern construction in my view is the AVON, similar in size and good but not too much grip.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by skentellytubby

Just got back from Donington racing with the CSCC. A handful of us that normally race in the Appendix K series (on Dunlop Histos) were in with a full Swinging 60's grid (with sticky Yokohamas or similar).

Can someone tell me the point of racing old cars on tyres like that?

I was sliding and drifting all over the place having a riot, meanwhile everything around me was just stuck firmly to the track (god knows how much mechanical wear and tear those tyres cause)

I just don't see the point, personally? If you are racing old cars surely you do so in order to get the whole package - including the slidy handling??

Another thread I'm just getting round to reading. Perhaps people race on sticky rubber, even in older cars, because they have been brought up on more modern cars on the road (which are genarally FWD these days & handle well) & actually can't handle the car sliding around. They want to race old cars (see my post in "why we race historics" thread) but actually aren't good enough to race quickly with the beast squirming beneath them!

And whilst I have never raced a true historic car, whether on sticky or period rubber, I have tried single seaters & I now race a FWD saloon precisely because I couldn't handle the more lively nature of single seaters. Maybe its similar for other people in their "historics"!!!!!

Grabs kevlar flack jacket!!!

[grantp]

Originally Posted by andy97

Grabs kevlar flack jacket!!!

Hmm.

Do you want some depleted uranium armour to go with that?

[zefarelly]

not all of the cars slide around . . . . with an underpowered heavier car your better off not scrubbing all your speed off

[Paul D]

A point I'd like to make here, following on from what Zefarelly said above: we're all in this for fun, right? I doubt there's anyone reading this who gets paid to race (oh, I wish...).

So, with that in mind, I prefer a car with more power than it has grip. In fact, I believe it should be mandatory that we all have more power than grip! As Zef said, an underpowered car is better off not sliding around - so what it really needs is less grip! Or more power, of course, but that costs. I think it takes more skill to control a car with less grip, and it certainly creates more smiles per mile.

But here's the crux of the matter: it seems that less grip actually costs more money, from what others have said on here about the price of period tyres. How bonkers is that? We all expect it to cost us when we want more power, but in a perfect world, less grip would cost less money, but apparently not!

Whilst I'd be happy to race with less grip, there has to be a level playing field. So, if you race in a series that allows the use of modern rubber, then unless you're happy to play at the back sliding around, you have to use the modern rubber to compete. When I first started racing my car, I was using whatever rubber I could get my hands on (all used), but since I've been running new tyres, I have been immediately quicker - but I don't think I'm having quite as much fun, as maybe I now have too much grip!

Some may well say, in that case, that I should go and play in a series that doesn't allow the modern rubber - but that's the whole point - I can't afford to! A set of modern trackday rubber for my car runs at about £350, but historic tyres would be more than double, for less grip!

I don't know about everyone else, but for me personally, tyres take a large percentage of my non-existent budget. They're the single biggest expense for me after entry fees, and I'd love to be able to cut the bill further. In fact, I'd happily race on bog standard cheapo road tyres at £50 each, on the proviso that everyone else in the series had to do the same. I believe we're all being stitched up for track rubber, be it historic Dunlops or Toyo triple eights/Yoko AO48s or whatever. How is it I can buy something like a Toyo Proxes T1R, supposedly a damn good road tyre (Toyo's flagship road tyre) for about half the price of a same size 888? Yeah, I know - development costs, made in small numbers, blah, blah, but does anyone really believe these track tyres are good value?

Rant over!

[skentellytubby]

Originally Posted by andy97

Another thread I'm just getting round to reading. Perhaps people race on sticky rubber, even in older cars, because they have been brought up on more modern cars on the road (which are genarally FWD these days & handle well) & actually can't handle the car sliding around. They want to race old cars (see my post in "why we race historics" thread) but actually aren't good enough to race quickly with the beast squirming beneath them!

Lights blue touch paper!!

[skentellytubby]

Originally Posted by Paul D

A point I'd like to make here, following on from what Zefarelly said above: we're all in this for fun, right? I doubt there's anyone reading this who gets paid to race (oh, I wish...).

So, with that in mind, I prefer a car with more power than it has grip. In fact, I believe it should be mandatory that we all have more power than grip! As Zef said, an underpowered car is better off not sliding around - so what it really needs is less grip! Or more power, of course, but that costs. I think it takes more skill to control a car with less grip, and it certainly creates more smiles per mile.

But here's the crux of the matter: it seems that less grip actually costs more money, from what others have said on here about the price of period tyres. How bonkers is that? We all expect it to cost us when we want more power, but in a perfect world, less grip would cost less money, but apparently not!

Whilst I'd be happy to race with less grip, there has to be a level playing field. So, if you race in a series that allows the use of modern rubber, then unless you're happy to play at the back sliding around, you have to use the modern rubber to compete. When I first started racing my car, I was using whatever rubber I could get my hands on (all used), but since I've been running new tyres, I have been immediately quicker - but I don't think I'm having quite as much fun, as maybe I now have too much grip!

Some may well say, in that case, that I should go and play in a series that doesn't allow the modern rubber - but that's the whole point - I can't afford to! A set of modern trackday rubber for my car runs at about £350, but historic tyres would be more than double, for less grip!

I don't know about everyone else, but for me personally, tyres take a large percentage of my non-existent budget. They're the single biggest expense for me after entry fees, and I'd love to be able to cut the bill further. In fact, I'd happily race on bog standard cheapo road tyres at £50 each, on the proviso that everyone else in the series had to do the same. I believe we're all being stitched up for track rubber, be it historic Dunlops or Toyo triple eights/Yoko AO48s or whatever. How is it I can buy something like a Toyo Proxes T1R, supposedly a damn good road tyre (Toyo's flagship road tyre) for about half the price of a same size 888? Yeah, I know - development costs, made in small numbers, blah, blah, but does anyone really believe these track tyres are good value?

Rant over!

Really good post!

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by terence bower

What,the hand cut one's.?

That would be hand cut underwater in Lake Titicaca by Peruvian virgins I assume.

[Peter Mallett]

Ooh those virgins. Rare as rocking horse manure.

As opposed to unscrubbed tyres which are not so much rare as priceless.

[zefarelly]

I drove a car on a track day at Goodwood on road tyres . . . . nearly parked it into the chicane wall, they where f***ed after 3 laps, therefore I'd say the dunlops are pretty good, predictable if nothing else, and thats coming from a part time hobbyist!