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Old 30 May 2011, 14:36 (Ref:2888217)   #51
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as unsafe as it is or rather despite the potential for danger that exists, you have to admit that the marshals and clean up/service crews are without a doubt some of the best in the business.

this alone inspires confidence in the track. of course accidents can happen anywhere but i cant image a place where they are more prepared for it. maybe its out of necessity but the danger here has already been reduced as much as is humanly possible.
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Old 30 May 2011, 14:40 (Ref:2888219)   #52
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Just for completeness

I wish they would get rid of it. The only time it ever becomes even slightly interesting (to a spectator) is if there are crashes, and I would prefer races to be won by driver quality, not when somebody down the field decides to have an accident.

Yes, to a driver it must be great - the control required is awesome. To the spectators at the track, it must be great to be that close. But that is a very small audience compared to everyone else, and the only people who can afford to be there are much richer than you or I.

Even this weekends race, full of incident, was a bit of a travesty compared with the other races we have had this year. Decided by an accident, two people in hospital, first race red flag in years, a few bad attempted overtakes (because there is no such thing as a safe overtake on a circuit where you cannot overtake), and it was still, basically, a procession.

Begone, foul spectacle.
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Old 30 May 2011, 14:53 (Ref:2888223)   #53
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I think I must have been watching a different GP weekend to some others...

The skill exhibited by the drivers around the streets and through the swimming pool section is just incredible to watch. There was some breathtaking overtaking and I for one hope it never goes away to be replaced with yet another open, souless, track with empty grandstands.

For anyone who watched them, GP2, WSR and Porsche Supercup from Monaco were fantastic as well.
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Old 30 May 2011, 15:00 (Ref:2888227)   #54
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As long as you allow provision for an escape road at the chicane, the possibility of hitting the end of a barrier there will be unavoidable.

I suppose there is room to make a straight-line of the chicane, and effectively eliminate it, but that is unlikely because of the necessary proximity of the barriers on the outside of Tabac. However, I do think the older, more open version of the chicane would help in a number of respects.

And yes, opening up Ste. Devote more like it once was I do think would help overtaking, as well as congestion with a bunched field.

Also, as someone pointed out the "two sets of safety rules", it really does NOT make sense that F1 should be treated as such. I mean, top-end speeds in a number of other categories are NOT all that different from F1. And some of those cars don't corner that much slower either. The biggest thing with F1 is how fast the cars accelerate and decelerate. However, looking at it from the standpoint of how much energy the vehicles carry, Le Mans sportcars often carry significantly more energy at the end of a straight than will an F1 car.

So, again, Monaco doesn't look so bad. (You guys should watch the ALMS and CART races from Miami in 2002/2003 and the IMSA GTP race at New Orleans from 1991.)
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Old 30 May 2011, 15:07 (Ref:2888231)   #55
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first race red flag in years
Apart from the one in Korea in 2010......and the one in Malaysia in 2009....and Germany in 2007.....
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Old 30 May 2011, 15:18 (Ref:2888236)   #56
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Yes, to a driver it must be great - the control required is awesome. To the spectators at the track, it must be great to be that close. But that is a very small audience compared to everyone else, and the only people who can afford to be there are much richer than you or I.
ah the ever important TV market. its really only a matter of time before races are scaled down to a 30min time slot. anyways if its really that boring changing the channel is always an option.

but the people paying for the opportunity to be there should be the ones the show is catered too. regardless of how fickle or rich people that are there i would still imagine that even in Monaco there are more 'average earning' types making a commute into the town every day in order to take in the sights and sounds of F1.
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Old 30 May 2011, 16:24 (Ref:2888274)   #57
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Apart from the one in Korea in 2010......and the one in Malaysia in 2009....and Germany in 2007.....
All stopped by rain, not an accident. Rain is a different kettle of fish, I should have been more specific and said dry race red flag.
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Old 30 May 2011, 16:32 (Ref:2888278)   #58
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ah the ever important TV market. its really only a matter of time before races are scaled down to a 30min time slot. anyways if its really that boring changing the channel is always an option.

but the people paying for the opportunity to be there should be the ones the show is catered too. regardless of how fickle or rich people that are there i would still imagine that even in Monaco there are more 'average earning' types making a commute into the town every day in order to take in the sights and sounds of F1.
Without the TV market, F1 is dead, so rather than ever important, it's the ONLY important part.
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Old 30 May 2011, 17:14 (Ref:2888292)   #59
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All stopped by rain, not an accident. Rain is a different kettle of fish, I should have been more specific and said dry race red flag.
I suspect the reason the race was stopped was the proximity to the chequered flag. Race Control would have known that extricating the driver under SC would have taken longer than the race had left and, IMO therefore made the decision to preserve some racing and to stop the race and restart it rather than running to the end with a SC finish.

There was no real reason why the driver couldn't be extricated under the safety car as has happened at other events.
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Old 30 May 2011, 17:30 (Ref:2888296)   #60
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Ive always said; there is one safety "set of rules" for F1, and another set for all other motorsport. IRL, ALMS, Formula Ford, F3 - all race on tracks that are far quicker and more dangerous than Monaco.
Absolutely, totally agree.

Some of our national circuits hosting some very quick cars (like Oulton Park, Thruxton etc) have changed very little over the years, and there are places you would not want to go off. IndyCar races on a number of street circuits with just as much, if not more, danger to Monaco. And take a look at the insane speeds the young and inexperienced guys in F3 do at parts of Macau! Let's keep things in perspective. Obsessive over-reaction and inquest into any reasonably big accident seems to only apply in F1.

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do we have to wait until a top driver is killed before the monaco GP is allowed to pass into history, after this weekend I think that will be soon
Absolutely ridiculous. I've heard the debate about F1 outgrowing Monaco back in the 90s. What's changed? A big accident for Perez, where the extra protection there seems to have done its job. Thankfully not a repeat of Wendlinger.

Petrov's accident really didn't look like much, it's curious he hurt his legs so much (hurt, not injured). But this kind of thing can happen anywhere - look at Davide Rigon's GP2 crash at Istanbul - he broke his leg. Do we call for the ultra-modern Istanbul to pass into history? After all, it caused a more serious injury this season than Monaco...

It does seem absurd that Monaco remains largely unchanged, while on the other extreme the new circuits have football fields of tarmac runoff, where spectators need to bring binoculars to see anything through prison style fencing. But the absurdity to me lies in the FIA's hypocrisy over their excessive requirements for modern circuits, and safety improvements going too far, removing the very appeal of the sport.

Give me Monaco any day, procession or not. It's one of the few places you can sense the ghosts of drivers from generations past, people who really knew what danger was.
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Old 30 May 2011, 18:34 (Ref:2888318)   #61
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Without the TV market, F1 is dead, so rather than ever important, it's the ONLY important part.
its certainly the most important thing for sponsors and people selling their wares but i would be shocked if they have the same values as the fans do.

lots of reasons why not sure if this thread is the right place fr it, but imo if watching something on tv is valued as being more important than watching it in person it doesn't have a lot of soul to begin with.

F1 needs places like Monaco for just that reason. for lack of a better phrase it is its raison d'etre
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Old 30 May 2011, 20:36 (Ref:2888392)   #62
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I suspect the reason the race was stopped was the proximity to the chequered flag. Race Control would have known that extricating the driver under SC would have taken longer than the race had left and, IMO therefore made the decision to preserve some racing and to stop the race and restart it rather than running to the end with a SC finish.

There was no real reason why the driver couldn't be extricated under the safety car as has happened at other events.
Perhaps if they had realised what a pointless waste of time that last 6 laps was going to be they wouldn't have bothered.
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Old 30 May 2011, 20:39 (Ref:2888395)   #63
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its certainly the most important thing for sponsors and people selling their wares but i would be shocked if they have the same values as the fans do.
Of course they don't - they just want to sell stuff. However, without them F1 would not exist, rightly or wrongly.

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lots of reasons why not sure if this thread is the right place fr it, but imo if watching something on tv is valued as being more important than watching it in person it doesn't have a lot of soul to begin with.
Not the point. It's much better to watch live - that goes without saying, but its the TV audience that means F1 can keep going.

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F1 needs places like Monaco for just that reason. for lack of a better phrase it is its raison d'etre
F1 is impressive to watch at any circuit. If you really want history, why not race at Brooklands?
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Old 31 May 2011, 11:14 (Ref:2888654)   #64
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Would you all be so upset if the replacement was Paul Ricard?
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Old 31 May 2011, 11:29 (Ref:2888667)   #65
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Would you all be so upset if the replacement was Paul Ricard?
I'd be on the fence
After all I'd love to see it happen at Macau
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Old 31 May 2011, 11:58 (Ref:2888685)   #66
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I'd be on the fence
After all I'd love to see it happen at Macau
Monaco is a unique and enthralling spectacle which the drivers love and is steeped in history, but the racing does tend to be processional.

In my opinion a whole season of tracks like Monaco would be deadly dull and kill the sport but one Monaco GP in the mix adds much needed variety, excitement and challenge as well as being a link with a glorious past. A season without the Monaco GP would have lost so much and the event would be sadly missed by most people associated with the sport.
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Old 31 May 2011, 12:49 (Ref:2888720)   #67
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I feel they missed a trick when they re-designed Rascasse and the latter part of the Swimming Pool complex. Making Rascasse a hairpin was fine, but they should have made the track flow from the middle part of the swimming pool straight into Rascasse. Drivers could then effectively have the car floored from Tabac to Rascasse. Speeds and safety might be a question, as im not sure what the run off is likethere but you would get passing into Rascasse.

I'm pretty sure back in the day (50's / 60's) the run into Rascasse was more or less a straight hairpin anyway, not sure when it changed to have that kink (which has now gone).
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Old 31 May 2011, 15:19 (Ref:2888800)   #68
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The track originally had a more or less matching curve to the pit straight. It ran flat-out from Tabac to the Gasworks Hairpin.

The Swimming Pool and La Rascasse were added in 1973. Anthony Noghes and Ste. Devote were tightened in 1976. And the chicane was changed to its current form in 1986.
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Old 31 May 2011, 15:26 (Ref:2888802)   #69
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Monaco is a unique and enthralling spectacle which the drivers love and is steeped in history, but the racing does tend to be processional.

In my opinion a whole season of tracks like Monaco would be deadly dull and kill the sport but one Monaco GP in the mix adds much needed variety, excitement and challenge as well as being a link with a glorious past. A season without the Monaco GP would have lost so much and the event would be sadly missed by most people associated with the sport.
Well, from a pure racing point Macau is Monaco x2 + plus one lengthy area to prepare and perform overtaking maneuvres. I don't want to see a season full of these races but I prefer Macau over the likes of Valencia, Abu Dhabi & Singapore any day
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Old 31 May 2011, 16:48 (Ref:2888845)   #70
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I feel they missed a trick when they re-designed Rascasse and the latter part of the Swimming Pool complex. Making Rascasse a hairpin was fine, but they should have made the track flow from the middle part of the swimming pool straight into Rascasse. Drivers could then effectively have the car floored from Tabac to Rascasse. Speeds and safety might be a question, as im not sure what the run off is likethere but you would get passing into Rascasse.
i'd argue certainly the first part of the swimming pool where the petrov/alguersuari/sutil crash happened is way too fast. it's spectacular, but it's just mad. in theory they could actually do what you're suggesting without too much work by just routing the circuit where the grandstands opposite the pitlane are now, there's actually about 3-4m space behind those stands so it wouldn't be on the edge of the water either. i can't see them wanting to lose those stands though, they have the commentary booths and some hospitality up there as well.
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Old 31 May 2011, 19:22 (Ref:2888956)   #71
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If anything proved this race is a farce, and a dangerous one, this weekend proved that. No run offs, resulting in big accidents and two drivers ending up in hospital. Very little overtaking, and when you try you get penalised becuase there's no room and you shouldn't be doing it.
A lot of people will probably say, with all the crashes, it was really exciting.
This is the same mentality that brings thousands to watch the British Touring car championship, because they just drive into each other.
Lots of circuits that were part of F1 history have gone, when will they race at Imola again?
Monaco would soon be forgotten and people will not believe why anybody raced there to begin with.
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Old 31 May 2011, 19:54 (Ref:2888980)   #72
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Err I think you'll find that lots of us who like Monaco do so because it demonstrates the skills of the drivers and not just because we like a crash and burn fest.

Drivers get injured at many circuits, Davide suffered a broken leg in GP2 in Istanbul, a big, modern, open circuit a couple of weeks ago. Actually what we saw in Monaco were a couple of big accidents where both drivers were OK. I really do think that the barrier that Perez hit performed very very well, at many circuits he could and would have gone in broadside to tyres or armco.

There are UK circuits with short run offs, there are plenty of street circuits around the world with short run offs. Those calling for scrapping Monaco are you going to bin all of those circuits?
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Old 31 May 2011, 20:23 (Ref:2888997)   #73
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Err I think you'll find that lots of us who like Monaco do so because it demonstrates the skills of the drivers and not just because we like a crash and burn fest.

Drivers get injured at many circuits, Davide suffered a broken leg in GP2 in Istanbul, a big, modern, open circuit a couple of weeks ago. Actually what we saw in Monaco were a couple of big accidents where both drivers were OK. I really do think that the barrier that Perez hit performed very very well, at many circuits he could and would have gone in broadside to tyres or armco.

There are UK circuits with short run offs, there are plenty of street circuits around the world with short run offs. Those calling for scrapping Monaco are you going to bin all of those circuits?
The very fact that they have to put so much in front of the armco that Perez hit, just proves they know it's dangerous. Petrov accident was caused because he, literally, had nowhere to go.
Manaco is not a race, it's a high speed parade and only proves how good the drivers are at following another car at high speed.
Brands Hatch was told it doesn't have enough room or enough run off to hold a GP, unlike Monaco.
I don't want to bin any circuit unless it proves near impossible to have a race, then either the cars need to change or the circuits do and that includes some modern circuits. As Monaco can't change, there's only one answer, bye bye.
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Old 31 May 2011, 20:34 (Ref:2889000)   #74
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I don't agree with your point about the padding that protected Perez, surely that's like saying that Paddock Hill is too dangerous because it requires all that gravel to protect the drivers and that most bike circuits are dangerous as they put extra padding in? Safety features are there to make the circuit safer, the fact that they are there is good and shouldn't be turned into a negative.

Davide's incident involved a very similar impact to Petrov's - into a barrier - in Davide's case the pit wall - there are barriers like this on every circuit, even on big open ones like Istanbul - I'd hate to see completely sanitised, Tilke type circuits at every round.

....and yes, I'd love to see F1 at Macau!
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Old 31 May 2011, 21:15 (Ref:2889028)   #75
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F1 is impressive to watch at any circuit.
It is more impressive at Monaco than Silverstone. Even though Silverstone is a fast circuit. However even if you don't buy the more impressive bit, it is different and gives a different sensory experience. Which is good.
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If you really want history, why not race at Brooklands?
Brooklands isn't a usable circuit as it is decaying. Sorry for the obvious answer, but.
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