[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by GasperG

From a viewer perspective it's definitely more exciting if the weather is changeable

I agree, but when you are watching the race live on site, you do like some nice dry, warm weather, especially during the night

[Simmi]

As long as it rains when I'm in the grandstand I don't mind too much

I don't think this early trip across the gravel for Wurz got on the TV coverage last year.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

Spa test has begun. Endurance info has some pictures, but the car doesnt look to be too different from the one at the prologue except two lights in the cheese wedges.

It appears that these two pairs of additional (rain) lights have been imposed as new safety measure in the wake of Nakajima's crash at Spa.

[Bubak]

Originally Posted by Simmi

I don't think this early trip across the gravel for Wurz got on the TV coverage last year.

(LINK) https://fbcdn-sphotos-b-a.akamaihd.n...91837c83294622

Early trip? That happend during a first rain shower few hours after start of the race (so, time when Lappiere crashed, right?). Ford Chicane?

I did not know that Wurz was off track.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Simmi

As long as it rains when I'm in the grandstand I don't mind too much

I don't think this early trip across the gravel for Wurz got on the TV coverage last year.

He's out testing the car's off-road capabilities

[TF110]

Nice interview with Pascal Vasselon. He says they were 'parts testing' in Spa. Also talks about the tools at tmg they use to help their preparation. The F1 days gave them knowledge on that front, especially with the limited on-track testing rules.

[kvenom]

Vasselon admitting they will not be the fastest and have to count on their reliability (which is sketchy at times).

[TF110]

Originally Posted by kvenom

Vasselon admitting they will not be the fastest and have to count on their reliability (which is sketchy at times).

One time, actually. Audi and Porsche have had reliability issues in both races so far. So no one is immune.

Heres a pic tweeted by Toyota of the nosebox section headed to the LM Testday, they look a bit different from what weve seen. Maybe theyre just not completely assembled so appear shorter?

[Akrapovic]

Nobody is immune but Toyota have 2 cars, Audi and Porsche have 3 cars. The numbers are stacked against Toyota in that regard.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Nobody is immune but Toyota have 2 cars, Audi and Porsche have 3 cars. The numbers are stacked against Toyota in that regard.

When you think about it, Toyota's chances are 2/11. and that's not taking into account that Toyota has 2 cars that are slow, relying on misfortune for the competition while hoping to stay reliable and accident free..you probably see where im going with this. The VAG bro's odds are at 6/11.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

When you think about it, Toyota's chances are 2/11. and that's not taking into account that Toyota has 2 cars that are slow, relying on misfortune for the competition while hoping to stay reliable and accident free..you probably see where im going with this. The VAG bro's odds are at 6/11.

Hmm, yes the VAG odds would be 6/11, but that logic and odds relies on Porsche and Audi working together. It's actually more accurate to say it's 3/11 for Audi and 3/11 for Porsche.

You could word it as it's 5/11 for Japan, but we know Toyota and Nissan won't work together.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Hmm, yes the VAG odds would be 6/11, but that logic and odds relies on Porsche and Audi working together. It's actually more accurate to say it's 3/11 for Audi and 3/11 for Porsche.

You could word it as it's 5/11 for Japan, but we know Toyota and Nissan won't work together.

Yeah im sure a Win for Audi or Porsch is job tidy in VAG's book. hence my 6/11

[TF110]

They didnt work together at Spa, they wont at Le Mans. Each want to win. Its every team for themselves. Porsche wont be satisfied with an Audi win, same goes for opposite with Audi. Maybe the company as a whole would be pleased, but thats about it. Call it sibling rivalry. I know if theres any track that Toyota should be on their best its at LM. So we'll see how the race plays out. The fastest car very often doesnt win.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

When you think about it, Toyota's chances are 2/11. and that's not taking into account that Toyota has 2 cars that are slow, relying on misfortune for the competition while hoping to stay reliable and accident free..you probably see where im going with this. The VAG bro's odds are at 6/11.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Hmm, yes the VAG odds would be 6/11, but that logic and odds relies on Porsche and Audi working together. It's actually more accurate to say it's 3/11 for Audi and 3/11 for Porsche.

You could word it as it's 5/11 for Japan, but we know Toyota and Nissan won't work together.

Sorry guys, but this assumes that Nissan are in the mix for overall victory, let alone a race finish. Toyota's odds are far better, i.e. 1/4

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

Yeah im sure a Win for Audi or Porsch is job tidy in VAG's book. hence my 6/11

Originally Posted by TF110

They didnt work together at Spa, they wont at Le Mans. Each want to win. Its every team for themselves. Porsche wont be satisfied with an Audi win, same goes for opposite with Audi. Maybe the company as a whole would be pleased, but thats about it. Call it sibling rivalry. I know if theres any track that Toyota should be on their best its at LM. So we'll see how the race plays out. The fastest car very often doesnt win.

And so are Volkswagen Group's odds... 3/4... obviously.

Or were you counting on ByKolles and Rebellion Racing to be up there ?

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by GasperG

From a viewer perspective it's definitely more exciting if the weather is changeable

On the batteries, commercialy available batteries are getting in the region of 5 kW/kg, that would mean 70 kg of cells with total 5.7 kWh for Toyota's 480 HP. But Toyota is probably waiting for Panasonic.

IF the problem is power density then the obvious choice is still Ultracapacitors... there are commercial ones with up to 117,32KW/kg ...and balanced ones with 13,5KWh/kg and 37.12 KW/kg (which i suspect are more than double the parameters of the Toyota's Nisshinbo EDLC) http://www.fastcapsystems.com/technology

If the problem is energy density and Nisshinbo EDLC tech is too short for the 8 MJ (possibly ~5 KWh/kg ), above is a solution, going batteries and A123 Nano like Porsche is another... because the fundamental problem it seems is Nisshinbo getting out of the capacitor business altogether... couldn't find a single reference to a capacitor tech in Nisshinbo site (last year i remember i could) (company seems in trouble, changing focus and probably hands) http://www.nisshinbo.co.jp/english/p...aim/aim02.html

[TF110]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Sorry guys, but this assumes that Nissan are in the mix for overall victory, let alone a race finish. Toyota's odds are far better, i.e. 1/4





And so are Volkswagen Group's odds... 3/4... obviously.

Or were you counting on ByKolles and Rebellion Racing to be up there ?

What are you talking about? Im not entertaining the odds. Its all a matter of chance when speaking of odds and favorites. Anyway, Im speaking on pace, Le Mans will probably be the best for Toyota relative to the competition.

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by kvenom

Vasselon admitting they will not be the fastest and have to count on their reliability (which is sketchy at times).

Terrible position to be in when you are facing six works cars that are faster than you.

Big shame but it looks like Toyota will really be on the defense this year, the odds of all six Audis and Porsches hitting trouble are rather small. They will probably forever curse 2014, it was their year to finally win.

[TF110]

Thats like saying theyll never be fast(est) again. If anything I think the next couple years they will be better equipped to be faster. I think the fia/aco will introduce a budget cap if not more cost saving rules.

[chernaudi]

The problem with the cost cutting measures is that it only ensures that Audi and Porsche will just blow the money that they "save" on something else.

Testing restrictions in F1 and NASCAR hasn't trimmed the big teams budgets to any significant degree--what they don't spend on on-track testing, they spend on simulations or bench testing.

Audi, Porsche and TMG already spend a lot of time, energy, and yes, money on simulations and bench testing, so it's not foreign territory for those guys.

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by TF110

What are you talking about? Im not entertaining the odds. Its all a matter of chance when speaking of odds and favorites. Anyway, Im speaking on pace, Le Mans will probably be the best for Toyota relative to the competition.

Well, I was basically responding to tyronnezx's initial post. But you are entirely correct. I stand corrected. I was mixing odds and chances in my argument (silly me ) and I should have said that even though the odds are against Toyota, the chances for overall victory are not negligible as you can basically count Nissan, ByKolles and Rebellion Racing out.

In that respect, the odds in favour of a Toyota victory in the LMP1 category at LM are actually 1:6 as you would have to consider ByKolles' and Rebellion Racing's entries (2 Toyotas running against 12 other LMP1 competitors). Correct ?

As far as Toyota's chances are concerned, I do maintain that the only players that can arguably fight for victory are Porsche, Audi and Toyota, meaning that Toyota's chances are 1/4.

Anyway, I do trust that you agree that Toyota's chances for victory are not negligible

[YorkshireLad]

Does Denso do the cooling for the S-cap? My dad works for Denso Marsden he told me they now and again get contracts for LM Prototype cooling parts.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Well, I was basically responding to tyronnezx's initial post. But you are entirely correct. I stand corrected. I was mixing odds and chances in my argument (silly me ) and I should have said that even though the odds are against Toyota, the chances for overall victory are not negligible as you can basically count Nissan, ByKolles and Rebellion Racing out.

In that respect, the odds in favour of a Toyota victory in the LMP1 category at LM are actually 1:6 as you would have to consider ByKolles' and Rebellion Racing's entries (2 Toyotas running against 12 other LMP1 competitors). Correct ?

As far as Toyota's chances are concerned, I do maintain that the only players that can arguably fight for victory are Porsche, Audi and Toyota, meaning that Toyota's chances are 1/4.

Anyway, I do trust that you agree that Toyota's chances for victory are not negligible

How are you discounting the Nissan's? Even i know Nissan wont do well but, i left it where i did because no one knows if Nissan is fast or slow relative to the leaders. you cant automatically discard them without any basis

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

How are you discounting the Nissan's? Even i know Nissan wont do well but, i left it where i did because no one knows if Nissan is fast or slow relative to the leaders. you cant automatically discard them without any basis

Well, I guess it depends on what we are actually talking about.

Overall victory at LM ? I don't see Nissan in the mix to fight for victory. Rebellion Racing acutally seem to have a better chance to finish the race than Nissan IMHO.

One lap performance ? That's maybe where Nissan can be closer to the top, but honestly, I have my doubts in that respect as well.

I love the Nissan effort this being said.

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

Well, I guess it depends on what we are actually talking about.

Overall victory at LM ? I don't see Nissan in the mix to fight for victory. Rebellion Racing acutally seem to have a better chance to finish the race than Nissan IMHO.

One lap performance ? That's maybe where Nissan can be closer to the top, but honestly, I have my doubts in that respect as well.

I love the Nissan effort this being said.

Im not discounting anyone. Nissan could pull an ace out the sleeve and have a quick relaible car too. the only variable being that the car is unique. Toyota on the other hand are on an absolute backfoot. even at spa, the Toyota had reliability (electrical) issues. Either way we will see at le mans.

On another note, Toyota has a 1.6 litre turbo engine for the Yaris wrc car. I wander if they have any plans to test a tuned version of this engine on a future Toyota LMP car

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by TF110

Thats like saying theyll never be fast(est) again. If anything I think the next couple years they will be better equipped to be faster. I think the fia/aco will introduce a budget cap if not more cost saving rules.

No, they maybe fast again, but the competition will not be as "light" as it was in 2014 in the foreseeable future.

Porsche still wasn't in a position to win last year so Toyota "just" had to beat Audi while having the fastest car around. Now Porsche is up to speed, Nissan may be next year as well and the future may hold even bigger rivals such as BMW.

2014 was the year their stars aligned, unfortunately they couldn't pull it off. Kind of reminds me of Pescarolo in 2005.