[WEC] Toyota LMP1 Discussion

[kvenom]

Vasselon says Porsche and Audi have made stratospheric gains compared to them. Lots of underdog talk by Toyota nowadays.

[hcl123]

Originally Posted by cokata

In what way?

Toyota can improve their engine as much as porsche do. And i agree with you that a bigger displacement is needed.

But bigger displacement means higher fuel consumption because more fuel is burned in each power stroke.

* If they could have comparatively more torque and so less reving then the efficiency will be equal and performance equal, with a penalty of more weight for a bigger block

* If they could have more reving for a smaller less heavier engine, then the question is how much fuel consumption that more reving implies

Long story short ... Toyota needs a more efficient engine, preferably with a smaller block for the same levels of torque and reving, which is not easy at all since Toyota engine is already very efficient for the NA tech it employs... and is not for the >100 years that ppl allover haven't tried to improve.

Attending engine i think Toyota needs above all be in the 8MJ class... and a little smaller and lighter engine but more perfomant, i think Toyota will be hard pressed to achieve without VVT (variable valve timing) if they stay on NA, which BTW is forbidden by rules... perhaps is a matter of complaining hard as the did before!...

[tyronnezx]

Are there any live video feeds of the le mans test?

[TF110]

There are a few updates to the car for the LM package. Theyre not easy to spot though. Changes to the front fenders, rear wing endplates and turning vanes are the biggest differences.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

Are there any live video feeds of the le mans test?

Probably not and this isn't the main test day thread. >> http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...144154&page=99

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by deggis

Since the beginning of 2015, BoP is adjusted only once in a year and that time is after Le Mans and then it is again frozen for 12 months.

I believe that this was discussed at length already in this thread and others

Last year's rules did allow for last minute changes of the EoT (the pre-LM EoT was adjusted in March 2014, just before the season started) and there was a penalty provision applicable at LM in case any manufacturer deviated from the data provided to the ACO-FIA by more than 2%. This fortunately only applied last year.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by MyNameIsNigel

I believe that this was discussed at length already in this thread and others

Last year's rules did allow for last minute changes of the EoT (the pre-LM EoT was adjusted in March 2014, just before the season started) and there was a penalty provision applicable at LM in case any manufacturer deviated from the data provided to the ACO-FIA by more than 2%. This fortunately only applied last year.

I may have forgot that but that's not "right before LM" like OP said.

[bobec]

Originally Posted by deggis

I may have forgot that but that's not "right before LM" like OP said.

My bad, right before Silverstone. But if you think about it, there isn't a lot of time between late March and early-mid June. Then Audi found speed for Le Mans (especially after getting the right setup in the actual race, and well into it), and then the rules were revised again. So I don't see how this could not be a factor.

[hondafan37]

Pascal Vasselon:
"Other manufacturers progressed stratospheric way"
"This year we met our limitations in terms of resources"
"We had to reduce 20 kg to advance to 8 MJ"

http://www.endurance-info.com/fr/pas...atospheriques/

[Acid09]

Yeah well, that was to be expected. There will be no miracle performance from them this race week..Toyota is simply behind. All they can hope for is for stuff to happen during the race, thankfully the other two will most likely race each other hard so there should be a bit of attrition.

Let's hope that this will at least help convince Japan that they need to give TMG more to work with if they want to be competitive. At least then this year won't have been in vain completely.

Funny, before the season everyone was obsessing about them getting a third car or not. If only they had two competitive ones...

[tyronnezx]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Yeah well, that was to be expected. There will be no miracle performance from them this race week..Toyota is simply behind. All they can hope for is for stuff to happen during the race, thankfully the other two will most likely race each other hard so there should be a bit of attrition.

Let's hope that this will at least help convince Japan that they need to give TMG more to work with if they want to be competitive. At least then this year won't have been in vain completely.

Funny, before the season everyone was obsessing about them getting a third car or not. If only they had two competitive ones...

Yeah i see the funny now. No one at Toyota - especially TMC Japan can say "Well we didnt see that coming" After sending TMG out on lunch money to compete against Audi and Porsche this year. And if they don't produce another race winning car for next year, my support of Toyota is going to sink to an all time low and i would probably give up. And trust me i am a Die-hard Toyota fan. Its sad to see after spending Millions in F1, TMC are happy to reverse the process and let this team suffer for 3rd. This year i would probably root for Porsche in Toyota's Absence. Mainly because Brendon Hartley and Bamber are good friends of mine from Karting and im sick of seeing Audi win at Le Mans. It's like watching F1 where Vettel won for four years before even Bernie calling him out for making the show boring.

[Simmi]

Originally Posted by Acid09

Funny, before the season everyone was obsessing about them getting a third car or not. If only they had two competitive ones...

Yep there's certainly irony in that.

Albeit I genuinely think that if one of those Toyotas can have a trouble-free run they've still got a great shot.

[Spyderman]

Looking at the data (for what it's worth given the weather and the fact that the teams were doing their own programs), the #1 Toyota's average lap times (excluding in and out-laps and laps over 4:00) are competitive.

[bentley speed 8]

I started to wonder how much of an advantage they gained last year from their flexible wing.
Did they run it at the other races after LM also?

[MyNameIsNigel]

Originally Posted by bentley speed 8

I started to wonder how much of an advantage they gained last year from their flexible wing.
Did they run it at the other races after LM also?

No. The ACO-FIA made it pretty clear that they did not want this "flexi wing" to be raced after Le Mans last year.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by tyronnezx

Yeah i see the funny now. No one at Toyota - especially TMC Japan can say "Well we didnt see that coming" After sending TMG out on lunch money to compete against Audi and Porsche this year. And if they don't produce another race winning car for next year, my support of Toyota is going to sink to an all time low and i would probably give up. And trust me i am a Die-hard Toyota fan. Its sad to see after spending Millions in F1, TMC are happy to reverse the process and let this team suffer for 3rd. This year i would probably root for Porsche in Toyota's Absence. Mainly because Brendon Hartley and Bamber are good friends of mine from Karting and im sick of seeing Audi win at Le Mans. It's like watching F1 where Adrian Newey won for four years before even Bernie calling him out for making the show boring.

Just correcting a little mistake there

This year has all the hallmarks of TMG needing to save resources in order to make the substantial change in switching to batteries now that the supercapacitor seems to have reached its limit. Let's not forget that this year's car is an improvement over last year - but Audi & Porsche have made bigger gains.

From what we've seen I would be very surprised if Toyota are a long way off at Le Mans; yes they will be third fastest but it's not a distant third. I think Simmi's right about their chances if a car can keep out of trouble, although if a VAG car can do the same it will be laps ahead.

[Giba]

There are numerous times in the history of Le Mans that the fastest car hasn't won, so why can't it happen this year? The Toyota's will not be miles behind and can take advantage of weather conditions and incidents to move up the field.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Giba

There are numerous times in the history of Le Mans that the fastest car hasn't won, so why can't it happen this year? The Toyota's will not be miles behind and can take advantage of weather conditions and incidents to move up the field.

Ok lets be more relevant here lol. There are numerous occasions where AUDI was not the fastest car, and they still won. Toyota cannot do Audi better than Audi does Audi. Now that Audi is faster, Toyota becomes an also-ran.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Articus

Ok lets be more relevant here lol. There are numerous occasions where AUDI was not the fastest car, and they still won. Toyota cannot do Audi better than Audi does Audi. Now that Audi is faster, Toyota becomes an also-ran.

In 2009 Audi came in as favorites off the back of winning Sebring... and they lost. It's rare, I admit it, but there is always a tiny tiny possibility that it MAY happen.

[Articus]

Agreed haha. I realize I came across with a bit too much certainty. I am 100% hoping for Toyota being very involved in the race. I'm am anxious for Davidson to tear up the track doing what we thought was quite frankly not possible.

But I do think it's ironic that Toyota has to try to play the script that Audi wrote and might well be using come raceday.

[Gingers4Justice]

In 2013, Toyota were miles off the pace and would have finished on the same lap if Buemi hadn't respectfully backed off in the final 15 minutes for the photo-shoot finish. The fastest team can often bottle it, and Audi and Porsche could push each other too hard.

I'm more concerned about Toyota for the rest of the WEC season, because unfortunately I don't think they'll have much of a say in the regular rounds of the season were there are far fewer variables at play. But you don't have to watch the big one in June many times to realise there's a lot to be said for simply going round in circles and racing your own race.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Articus

But I do think it's ironic that Toyota has to try to play the script that Audi wrote and might well be using come raceday.

True, but then again, Audi and Porsche might sucker each other into racing themselves into the barriers or into the garages, with the Audi script going out the window, and if the TS040s are close enough...

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Gingers4Justice

In 2013, Toyota were miles off the pace and would have finished on the same lap if Buemi hadn't respectfully backed off in the final 15 minutes for the photo-shoot finish. The fastest team can often bottle it, and Audi and Porsche could push each other too hard.

It is an interesting comparison but where I think it differs is that since Audi was well aware of their position in the race they weren't really increasing the gap to the Toyotas in 2013 but rather managing it. Because we can expect Audi and Porsche to push each other so hard on pace, I would expect that the Toyota's lack of pace will be much more apparent if there is indeed a lack of pace and they have not been sandbagging.

Now I have seen incredible displays of sandbagging all through until Le Mans most memorably from Aston Martin the past 3 years so I would hope for Toyota to go out in the first practice session and set a 3:14 on the second lap....in the rain but that's just me. Anyway here's to hoping.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by Articus

It is an interesting comparison but where I think it differs is that since Audi was well aware of their position in the race they weren't really increasing the gap to the Toyotas in 2013 but rather managing it. Because we can expect Audi and Porsche to push each other so hard on pace, I would expect that the Toyota's lack of pace will be much more apparent if there is indeed a lack of pace and they have not been sandbagging.

I accept that Audi were partially managing the gap, but the 2013 R18s also struggled to pull away from the Toyotas in the rain and the TS030s were even able to close the gap when the wet stuff really came down. Safety cars also played a role that year and of course, that's less of a factor since the introduction of slow zones. The point I was making with using that year as an example is that if Le Mans was purely about race-pace, we might as well hand out the trophy at the end of the Test Day. It's very rare that the car on pole wins the race.

Comparing races between years doesn't really work because every race is so different. But we wouldn't be into this sort of thing if it was predictable, would we?

[Acid09]

Originally Posted by Articus

Now I have seen incredible displays of sandbagging all through until Le Mans most memorably from Aston Martin the past 3 years so I would hope for Toyota to go out in the first practice session and set a 3:14 on the second lap....in the rain but that's just me. Anyway here's to hoping.

The difference is that Aston Martin races in a class were sandbagging makes sense and serves a purpose.

Sandbagging in LMP1 simply serves absolutely no purpose, especially at this point in the year. So why would they even do it?