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Old 23 Jul 2017, 08:14 (Ref:3753700)   #26
Biscuits In A Red Bull
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Biscuits In A Red Bull should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridBiscuits In A Red Bull should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by chunterer View Post
F2 does not have much.more variables. Its all about setting the car up to make dodgy tyres last!

Rowland's is main flaw is hot headedness and he gets a bit rash when the bullshit tyres go off and all his hard work goes out the window but the guy has such natural talent. He doed need to work on maxxing set ups but if you don't have the right engineer or tyres then you ain't gonna win.

The current F2 is not an accurate and consistent barometer of talent. In 12 years how many times have the quickest/most talented drivers won it?

About half at most i reckon off top of my head i can think of:
Rosberg
Hamilton
Glock
Hulk
Grosjean
Vandoorne

A few decent ones came through having not won it but the rest were journeymen benefitting from the best team/engineer/ weaker field that season

In a one make series if you have artificial rules and too much emphasis on one element (in this case tyre enginnering!) it is bound to give a false representation.
So the list you've made suggests that irrespective, the most talented tend to rise to the top (Leclerc too). And if the "journeymen" that won (as if driver development doesn't happen - look at Markelov) were against weaker fields, then surely there were no talents to win the series? If Rowland can't look after the tyres then I'm sorry that's not good enough, and if he can't race against other drivers cleanly then again, that's his problem. Plenty of other talented drivers have done both successfully. I'm not denying engineers help, they obviously do, but the driver does the driving at the end of the day. It's a very good barometer as it tests an awful lot of the drivers' abilities. The fact Latifi has outscored Rowland over the last 3 rounds is telling imo.

If GP2/F2 has been a false representation then how come most of the champions tend to be quite handy in F1? Rosberg, Hamilton, Glock, Hulkenberg, Maldonado, Grosjean - all bar Hulkenberg have podiums in F1, and he's rather handy. Even those who didn't win the series but were frontrunners have made impressions - Pérez, Bianchi, Kovalainen, Nasr and even Petrov and Kobayashi at a stretch. Giovinazzi looked quite good too in the Sauber, given his inexperience. Vandoorne is currently swimming, even against Alonso, and what's to say Gasly won't do a better job than Kvyat? As far as I can see, you're taking your argument way too far in this respect. Yes, tyres are a dynamic that obstructs raw pace, but false representation? Not at all...
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Old 23 Jul 2017, 09:59 (Ref:3753714)   #27
p-matt
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Originally Posted by chunterer View Post
F2 does not have much.more variables. Its all about setting the car up to make dodgy tyres last!

Rowland's is main flaw is hot headedness and he gets a bit rash when the bullshit tyres go off and all his hard work goes out the window but the guy has such natural talent. He doed need to work on maxxing set ups but if you don't have the right engineer or tyres then you ain't gonna win.

The current F2 is not an accurate and consistent barometer of talent. In 12 years how many times have the quickest/most talented drivers won it?

About half at most i reckon off top of my head i can think of:
Rosberg
Hamilton
Glock
Hulk
Grosjean
Vandoorne

A few decent ones came through having not won it but the rest were journeymen benefitting from the best team/engineer/ weaker field that season

In a one make series if you have artificial rules and too much emphasis on one element (in this case tyre enginnering!) it is bound to give a false representation.
Nonsense. You need raw pace. You need to be able to learn quick in 45 mins of practice. You need to be able to manage tyres, demonstrate racecraft and an ability to overtake and defend. Drivers that rely on talent and instinct rather than thinking their way through a race are not rewarded. That's the way it should be; that's the way F1 has always been.

In F3 or 3.5, surely there is too much emphasis on qualifying and being able to lead into turn 1? Is that not giving a false representation? I get that you value raw pace in a driver, but it alone is not enough. It's led to underdeveloped drivers - i.e. Rowland's struggles now, Magnussen's inability to manage tyres and generally poor racecraft in his year at McLaren.

If F2 wasn't a reliable barometer of talent, why would F1 teams have their junior drivers in it?

And why do you bother watching F2 if you have such a bee in your bonnet about it?
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Old 24 Jul 2017, 11:47 (Ref:3753927)   #28
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Originally Posted by Biscuits In A Red Bull View Post
So the list you've made suggests that irrespective, the most talented tend to rise to the top (Leclerc too). And if the "journeymen" that won (as if driver development doesn't happen - look at Markelov) were against weaker fields, then surely there were no talents to win the series? If Rowland can't look after the tyres then I'm sorry that's not good enough, and if he can't race against other drivers cleanly then again, that's his problem. Plenty of other talented drivers have done both successfully. I'm not denying engineers help, they obviously do, but the driver does the driving at the end of the day. It's a very good barometer as it tests an awful lot of the drivers' abilities. The fact Latifi has outscored Rowland over the last 3 rounds is telling imo.

If GP2/F2 has been a false representation then how come most of the champions tend to be quite handy in F1? Rosberg, Hamilton, Glock, Hulkenberg, Maldonado, Grosjean - all bar Hulkenberg have podiums in F1, and he's rather handy. Even those who didn't win the series but were frontrunners have made impressions - Pérez, Bianchi, Kovalainen, Nasr and even Petrov and Kobayashi at a stretch. Giovinazzi looked quite good too in the Sauber, given his inexperience. Vandoorne is currently swimming, even against Alonso, and what's to say Gasly won't do a better job than Kvyat? As far as I can see, you're taking your argument way too far in this respect. Yes, tyres are a dynamic that obstructs raw pace, but false representation? Not at all...
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Originally Posted by p-matt View Post
Nonsense. You need raw pace. You need to be able to learn quick in 45 mins of practice. You need to be able to manage tyres, demonstrate racecraft and an ability to overtake and defend. Drivers that rely on talent and instinct rather than thinking their way through a race are not rewarded. That's the way it should be; that's the way F1 has always been.

In F3 or 3.5, surely there is too much emphasis on qualifying and being able to lead into turn 1? Is that not giving a false representation? I get that you value raw pace in a driver, but it alone is not enough. It's led to underdeveloped drivers - i.e. Rowland's struggles now, Magnussen's inability to manage tyres and generally poor racecraft in his year at McLaren.

If F2 wasn't a reliable barometer of talent, why would F1 teams have their junior drivers in it?

And why do you bother watching F2 if you have such a bee in your bonnet about it?


Rowland does have raw pace and we know he has some sensitivity to what the car underneath him is doing because he is often one of the best guys on cold tyres, a huge skill and example of confidence in itself which not many drivers have. Latifi who I failed to mention I think is pretty good and getting better doesn't seem to have that skill.

Bianchi is an excellent example of a top talent who was unable to get the job done in this series. We all knew he was good enough and his talent wasn't enough to get the job done. But we don't think any less of him. He did not have the right equipment or magic ingredient to get the tyres to last, it was nothing to do with his abilities as a driver, just as I believe is the same problem for Rowland.

Plus I do not see any drivers who took 3 or 4 years to win it as F1 quality talent. Maldonado I once thought was a firebrand but he proved he could not learn from his mistakes and that cost him his career. Being unbelievable on his day wasn't enough. Palmer? Valsecchi, Pantano?

I understand why people will take what they see happening and results as 'fact' but it does not tell the full story, far from it.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 14:16 (Ref:3755087)   #29
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tux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtux should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Interestingly Leclercs car has smoke again in Hungaroring qualifying the same lap he goes half a second faster than anyone....

Admittedly it looked like the extinguisher had gone off in the cockpit but it will be interesting to see what happens.
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 18:30 (Ref:3755183)   #30
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Interestingly Leclercs car has smoke again in Hungaroring qualifying the same lap he goes half a second faster than anyone....

Admittedly it looked like the extinguisher had gone off in the cockpit but it will be interesting to see what happens.
Very interesting.... 😉
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Old 28 Jul 2017, 19:07 (Ref:3755192)   #31
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Originally Posted by chunterer View Post
Rowland does have raw pace and we know he has some sensitivity to what the car underneath him is doing because he is often one of the best guys on cold tyres, a huge skill and example of confidence in itself which not many drivers have. Latifi who I failed to mention I think is pretty good and getting better doesn't seem to have that skill.

Bianchi is an excellent example of a top talent who was unable to get the job done in this series. We all knew he was good enough and his talent wasn't enough to get the job done. But we don't think any less of him. He did not have the right equipment or magic ingredient to get the tyres to last, it was nothing to do with his abilities as a driver, just as I believe is the same problem for Rowland.

Plus I do not see any drivers who took 3 or 4 years to win it as F1 quality talent. Maldonado I once thought was a firebrand but he proved he could not learn from his mistakes and that cost him his career. Being unbelievable on his day wasn't enough. Palmer? Valsecchi, Pantano?

I understand why people will take what they see happening and results as 'fact' but it does not tell the full story, far from it.

U-turning a bit on Latifi now are we?!

Bianchi didn't struggle with tyres. He did a year on Bridgestones and a year on Pirellis that weren't that extreme.

What I don't understand is you've decided this series isn't based on 'fact', yet it seems that it's based on you not really liking the results and blaming it on the tyres.

What's to say that the other series' aren't exactly a true picture of ability? It would stand to reason that F2 shows more of a driver's skill as the driving standard is higher and there are more variables to manage than in junior series'.
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Old 30 Jul 2017, 17:05 (Ref:3756092)   #32
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Go_For_Pole should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridGo_For_Pole should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Bianchi in his GP2 years had a problem managing pressure imho, he did mistakes that were unexpected for a man of his talent
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Old 15 Aug 2017, 15:42 (Ref:3759548)   #33
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Biscuits In A Red Bull should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridBiscuits In A Red Bull should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
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Originally Posted by chunterer View Post
Rowland does have raw pace and we know he has some sensitivity to what the car underneath him is doing because he is often one of the best guys on cold tyres, a huge skill and example of confidence in itself which not many drivers have. Latifi who I failed to mention I think is pretty good and getting better doesn't seem to have that skill.

Bianchi is an excellent example of a top talent who was unable to get the job done in this series. We all knew he was good enough and his talent wasn't enough to get the job done. But we don't think any less of him. He did not have the right equipment or magic ingredient to get the tyres to last, it was nothing to do with his abilities as a driver, just as I believe is the same problem for Rowland.

Plus I do not see any drivers who took 3 or 4 years to win it as F1 quality talent. Maldonado I once thought was a firebrand but he proved he could not learn from his mistakes and that cost him his career. Being unbelievable on his day wasn't enough. Palmer? Valsecchi, Pantano?

I understand why people will take what they see happening and results as 'fact' but it does not tell the full story, far from it.
Apologies for the delayed response, I have been away for a while.

It certainly is nice to know how much more insightful your opinions are than mine though. I always thought that driver performance was the best barometer of talent, but now I must agree that there is something only a man of your superior talent-gauging abilities can see that mere plebeians such as I cannot comprehend, and thus your own perceptions and insights into the real goings on far outweigh the goings on themselves.

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Old 15 Aug 2017, 17:27 (Ref:3759574)   #34
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Apologies for the delayed response, I have been away for a while.

It certainly is nice to know how much more insightful your opinions are than mine though. I always thought that driver performance was the best barometer of talent, but now I must agree that there is something only a man of your superior talent-gauging abilities can see that mere plebeians such as I cannot comprehend, and thus your own perceptions and insights into the real goings on far outweigh the goings on themselves.

No, not at all and welcome back.

I have much missed your repartee and wit
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Old 17 Aug 2017, 11:11 (Ref:3759918)   #35
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No, not at all and welcome back.

I have much missed your repartee and wit
Wit from the comment or from my opinion I wonder

Just to clarify there are absolutely no ill feelings here
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Old 17 Aug 2017, 16:41 (Ref:3759987)   #36
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Wit from the comment or from my opinion I wonder

Just to clarify there are absolutely no ill feelings here
I know that!! It's all good banter, and I love it that there is at least one more person as interested in the series pro's and con than me from these shores!
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Old 19 Aug 2017, 17:25 (Ref:3760412)   #37
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I know that!! It's all good banter, and I love it that there is at least one more person as interested in the series pro's and con than me from these shores!
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