Should we run our historic cars in period livery?

[terence]

That was one reason it was so good in the wet,!

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Alan Raine

No, but I remember the Durex Lola. There was a story that it picked up 2 puntures in it's first test session

When the Durex-Lola F5000 of Richard Scott first appeared at Oulton Park the commentator spotted it as it made its way to the pit lane exit where Scott stopped. As he did a tyre burn-out to join the track the commentator said.....

"There goes the Durex-Lola burning rubber!"

There was then a lot of childish giggling before the commentator switched off the mike!

[Simon Hadfield]

The Femfresh Ginetta surely?

[midgetman]

>>>>>>>No, but I remember the Durex Lola.

Ah yes, but do you remember that the BBC refused to show the International Trophy from Silverstone one year (I think Alan Jones was driving and won or nearly won) because "Durex" offended common decency. It was only a handful of years before they ran condom adverts in primetime as part of their response to the AIDS ballyhoo of the early/mid 80s.

Ah, we so loved the Bat'n'Ball Club in those days, anyone who complains about ITV's F1 coverage today don't know they're born!

[COLIN STUBBS]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

The Femfresh Ginetta surely?

alison davies? maybe not....

[Peter Mallett]

Actually Simon you are right, my mistake.

I heard it was still around.

[acotrel]

When I race, I race a motorcycle. One of the things I don't really like in an historic vehicle is 'lack of authenticity'. I find historic bikes that 'never existed' pretty disgusting. We can't all own ex-factory/team racers, however we can make our vehicles LOOK the part!
My young brother gets involved in historic sidecars on speedway. The rules of their club is that the bike must either have existed (pre-80) or be a replica of one that existed. Anyone wishing to build a 'replica ' must get permission from the current owner of the original vehicle.
Historic racing is partly about PRESERVATION. I love cars like Tierney's Cobra which is almost entirely V8 supercar, however there should be a separate class for them, perhaps labelled 'developed old ****'!

[Al Weyman]

I dont think my mates water cooled 6 speed Arial Arrow ever existed but it don't half look good :-)

[Tim Wilkinson]

This is all fine if you're running to the original rules, as the cars may genuinely exist and be used.

But take as an example late 90s BTCC, and assume that the nearest thing to those regs now is CTCRC pre-93. How many of those BTCC cars still exist? A bare handful, at most. So the field has to be bolstered by "replicas". Now my car is one of those, and is in (roughly) period livery, but how would it look if every astra that entered had to run the same colour-scheme? Every Mk2 Golf was in blue/white or red?

If the championship is run to period regs, with cars used in period or replicas built to the same standard, then it may make sense as it's a period recreation, but I don't think many championships are exactly that these days so why make livery limited when mechanical rules are less so?

For the record, I don't see the likes of CTCRC as being period recreations, but rather a place to race cars of a certain age within appropriate but not historically accurate regulations. Livery should be the same - appropriate, but not historically accurate.

[/2c]

[zefarelly]

has it not always been the case that works cars get sold off to clubbies then thrashed bashed and crashed . . .hence so few survivors ?

If thats a given fact then replicas are the only realistic way of seeing these cars, even in museums, so at the very least they should be painted the right color and have the same size wheels on !

[terence]

Absoluteley agree Zef, as is obviously known there are quite a few "works" cars coming out of the woodwork[Morgans included] but at the same time I do think that if there are to many then we are going to have grids full of Red &Gold /White /green & red and white cars, unfortunatly we cant dictate how the owners repaint thier cars.

[esper]

Originally Posted by acotrel

When I race, I race a motorcycle. One of the things I don't really like in an historic vehicle is 'lack of authenticity'. I find historic bikes that 'never existed' pretty disgusting. We can't all own ex-factory/team racers, however we can make our vehicles LOOK the part!
My young brother gets involved in historic sidecars on speedway. The rules of their club is that the bike must either have existed (pre-80) or be a replica of one that existed. Anyone wishing to build a 'replica ' must get permission from the current owner of the original vehicle.
Historic racing is partly about PRESERVATION. I love cars like Tierney's Cobra which is almost entirely V8 supercar, however there should be a separate class for them, perhaps labelled 'developed old ****'!

very good , here we have a man (racing m cycles) and a good opinion!!!

[Al Weyman]

If thats a given fact then replicas are the only realistic way of seeing these cars, even in museums, so at the very least they should be painted the right color and have the same size wheels on

Not keen on those yanks in the Heritage with monster 18" wheels on them at all, they allow that but would not allow my 87 (too new) in that came form the factory with 16 inch rims.

[acotrel]

I might be a bit strange, however in historic motorcycling we have a 'cut-off' date of 1980. I suggest that a MotoGP bike which is over 5 years old is 'historic' and attempts should be made to preserve it. Any racing machine over 10 year old is certainly 'historic'! A 1987 racing car might be excluded under 'the rules', however it is still worth keeping alive. Just because some moron cannot see the value in it, doesn't mean it should be excluded from 'historic racing' forever.
It really peeves me wehen the 'experts' declare that something or other is 'modern'. I have two historic racing motorcycles. The reason I have them is that I raced them when they were 'modern', one is now 35 years old!
I strongly suggest that 'rules' that exclude vehicles from events should be tempered with the need to get more interesting machines into competition. Historic racing is primarily about PRESERVATION of the authentic stuff!
Best Regards,
Alan Cotterell

[acotrel]

I just absolutely love Group N historic racing cars, and also Group A. This stuff about running in original livery is apparently a bone of contention. Group N are not allowed to display advertisments on cars, however Group A cars are allowed to !
It's disappointing that a simple thing like this, which affects the cost of racing, can influence what cars can run together in races.
It would be great to run an Australian historic touring car championship, however while these minor things exert such influence, I don't think such a championship will happen!

[Peter Mallett]

I've replicated the Spice/Pillette (and later Martin Bros) Spa Capri colour scheme from 1978 - 81. I haven't put the Belga graphics on it though. In CTCRC I know one car running the Jeff Allam Equipe ESSO livery and indeed Brian Stevens used to run the TWR XJS livery.

I think from that point of view its a good thing but as Terence points out. If you get too many it becomes boring.

FWIW I do know that one original CC Racing Gp1 shell is aiming to appear in the full Spice livery at next year's Spa so maybe I'll have re think after that.

[Al Weyman]

I don't think us guys are that stupid (aren't we, back me up here) Peter. We know what else is in the paddock and as you cited with your example there is usually a fair old few vintage liveries to chose from. In fact I dressed my car up as a Hertz special which was not even a race car but an option with the RS strips and all but I may have spoilt it a bit with www.CADart.com down the side as the internet was not even thought of back then but hey I need to justify the cars existince to the tax man somehow don't I!

Hey when I eventually finish my Penske IROC I will be spoiled for choice as they had 15 cars all in different colours but I had better stick with the Camel beige (yuk) it was originally painted in.

[zefarelly]

sly little advertising plug their Mr Weyman !

I'm not saying that cars should all be in period works colours, but a little common sense when selecting colours wouldn't go a miss, Peters car is 'right', I thin my car is 'right' although if I was doing it again I'd go for a slightly duller blue as its a late 60's ford colour, not the early 40's one

there where lots of flat colours around at the time, whet looks clearly wron is metallic purple on a pre66 car, or lurid pink wheels, or most metallic colours ( with the exception of silver/gunmetal ) as they just didn't exist in period.

come to think of it, I can't see any reason for anyone using metallic purple with the exception of that little singer bloke called Prince/squiggle or whatever he's known as these days !

[terence]

No Al ,We,re not stoooopid,when I first went self employed I built 3 MGBs,one was mine the other two were customer cars.All 3 were in different colours,the only thing they had in common was "my" trade mark,i.e three white stripes on the front valence,chosen because none of the pukker works cars had them. What happened?some clown copied it,my car looked that is .That year at Spa 6hrs I had a hell of a time trying to explain that "those times are NOT mine",the other clown was out there criusing around,thus confusing my time keeper!! Point covered?

[esper]

good point. I seems that there are at least sixty FIA MGB's in the world, painted red/white hardtop ofcourse......... when I had an MGB I painted it in "period" colours. a bit Brigs Cunningham like but then green stripes. My guys never had difficulties with timing!!!!!

[terence]

I did one in dark b green ,old english white roundles,it looked great, just how I wanted mine to look,like I already said -flip of a coin and my wife won !!

[JimW]

Caution, heretic posting

Actually I don't really care about the colours you paint the cars, nor can I get very upset by less than concours presentation. Neither can I bother about whether you have accurately preserved the chassis plate to Pop rivet to your spares box special. (Or indeed proudly proclaim it as a replica.)

I'm there to watch racing. Anything else is pretty secondary for me.

I'm just glad that people take time, effort and their money to put on races I can watch. If the car looks great and has a history, that's fine and interesting and makes something to look at in the Paddock or a photo/article. But the point of all this is racing. (Not who wins or, even less, who wins championships.)

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

And I even like the ones which look like a shed painted with a 4" brush and domestic gloss, for I can think "That's what any car I constructed woulod look like".

Regards

Jim

[Peter Mallett]

Good points and well made.

[Al Weyman]

sly little advertising plug their Mr Weyman !

I was in context with the post though Zef