Brabham BT14

[allenbrown]

Fantastic!!

Did you write chassis numbers in your programs often? You could help us with many, many things if you did.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Time for an update. Alan's positive identification of Lane's car as FL-1-65 means that there were definitely two cars with that number. Also, Denis has spotted a mistake in the information he gave me last month: FL-9-65 was the Bridges car, not the Ahrens car (which was F2-3-65).

So the list is now as follows (again, all cars except FL-1-65(I) are in the UK unless otherwise stated).

FL-1-65(I) - Bib Stillwell (Aus) 1965 - RC Philips Late 1965 - Bob Jane 1968 ... back to Stillwell(?) - Peter Sydney - Rob Hands - Peter Harburg 2005. Retained 2006
FL-1-65(II) - John and David Bridges 1965 - Bryan Eccles 1966 - Roy Lane 1967-68 - Jim Johnstone 1969 - John Scott-Walter 1970 - Malcolm Dungworth 1971 ...
FL-2-65 - John Butterworth 1965-68 ... missing in 1969-71 ... Geoff Inglis in 1972 ... Devon in 1978 ... John Ampt (Aus) - Noel Robson (Aus) 1988; retained 2006
FL-3-65 - John Mitchell 1965-67; reportedly sold to America ... Bruce Redding (US) ... George Goodare (Aus) - Brian Wilson (Aus) - John Gale (Aus). Retained 2006.
FL-4-65 - Fred Smith 1965-68 - Peter Kaye 1969 ... Geoff Lambert 1971
FL-5-65 - Malcolm Templeton (Ire) 1965-67 - John Smith (Ire) 1968 ... Edmund Irvine (Ire) 1970
FL-6-65 - Rodney Bloor 1965 - John Bridges 1965 - John Davis 1966 ... Rodger Newman 2005
FL-7-65 - Jackie Epstein 1965 - Ian Raby late 1965 and retained by team until at least 1969 ... Jonathan Burke 2005
FL-8-65 - Robert Ashcroft/Derek Bennett 1965 - Jim Charnock 1966 - Davey Powell 1966-67...
FL-9-65 - John Bridges/Red Rose Motors 1966 ... race-cars.com recently

This gives us a total of ten BT14s, which matches MRD records, but that may just be a coincidence. Other cars that don't yet fit (BT10s?, BT15s?, "Friday afternoon cars"?) are:
1. John Ewer 1965 (odd libre races from May onwards, advertised Jan 1966)
2. Barrie Ford 1965 (1650cc - two libre races in Sep and Oct 1965)
3. Keith Jones 1965 (1650cc)
4. Earl Jones US Formula B 1965 (wrecked)
Cars that first appear in 1966:
5. David Preston/Sports Motors 1966
6. Philippe Vidal F3 1966

Other BT14s are racing today, both in the UK and in the US. Anyone have ids on any of them?

Allen

[David McKinney]

FL-1-65(II)
Presumably Lane’s t/c BT14 was a different car: he used it in 1967, when the ex-Eccles Buick-powered car was with John Scott-Davies

Can’t help much with modern owners, but FL-5-65 was on display at the 1997 Goodwood Revival

[allenbrown]

David

I still can't find any contemporary reference to John Scott-Davis having a BT14 but I did find a note that Lane "is much happier now he has put his Roots-supercharged Lotus twin-cam engine into Bryan Eccles old Brabham BT14 chassis instead of his Cooper" in Autosport 8 Sep 1967 p416. Eccles last advertised the car 7 Apr 1967 (p543). Could JS-D have had it in between?

Allen

[allenbrown]

Jonathan Burke advises that his car disappears after 1970 until:

I'm unaware of it's life after that until it was purchsed by a local fellow- Don Orosco of Monterey, California in probably 1995. He restored it (pretty much) and then sold it in '98 or so to a John Zuppan of Portland, Oregon. I believe John Zuppan fiished the restoration and raced it once (dinged a valve) and then sold it to a Jim Schnell of Seattle Washington. I purchased the car in early 2005.

Jonathan's in the San Francisco bay area.

Allen

[Alan Brown]

Autosport [26-2-70] has its seasonal survey of the 1969 hill climb season. There is a picture of Jim Johnstone in his Brabham-Buick, but of more interest is the text and I quote: 'Jimmy Johnstone has sold his Brabham-Buick BT14 to fellow-Yorkshireman Peter Walter... this car is the "prototype" BT14 chassis FL/1/65, and was first owned by David Bridges, then by Rodney Bloor: Bryan Eccles put in a Buick and hillclimbed it, and Roy Lane and Johnstone did the same. It was actually raced in F1 in 1965 by the late John Taylor, with a 1500 twin-cam'.

[Bryan Miller]

FL-1-65[1].
I have the following , I believe from George Goodare via the late George Thornton.
New to Sports Motors [ agent ] 4-1-1965 , fitted with Ford Twin-cam [ Cosworth 1500cc # 13640903], for B.S.Stillwell Australia , 1st race Calder Pk. 7-3-1965.

FL-3-65 , as current owner John Gale hasn't come on board as yet , this is a summary of the story.
Sold late 1967 to USA , Steve Pfeifer and car started to be referred as BT21/14 , fitted with a BRM Phase 4 t/cam.
car repainted BRG.
Sold Nov. 1968 to Bruce Redding crashed at Laguna Seca March 1969 , major rebuilt undertaken , rear uprights changed , car painted red/white and called both Grevelle Ford or Honda special .
Early 1971 to Steve Jizmagian , major accident Laguna Seca [ again] , car painted yellow prior to accident thence maroon , then SCCA logbook commenced #19-199.
Nov. 1972 to Tom Gouldstone [ now deceased] painted white , involved another major high speed accident at [ you guessed it] Laguna Seca , 1-11-1975, eng/box running gear removed and car stored in Gouldstone garage untill sold to Dick McGovern 1978.
Retained by McGovern untill Nov. 1994 then sold to George Goodare Sydney Australia , rebuilt/restored , sold to Brian Wilson Sept 2000 , then to John Gale Nov. 2001.

FL-7-65 , I also have the name John Cardwell associated with this car.

Bryan.

[Ted Walker]

Allen. In post 27 you say that there is no FL-10 ????? (AM.. )are you SURE about this.A fiend of mine brought it back from South Africa in the early 90s.It was taken to Rhodesia by an ex Frank Williams mechanic.in 1967. I have the later owners names prior to 1990.

[allenbrown]

Can anyone ever be completely sure?

In post #8, I said "no such car according to Denis". He seems to have pretty solid records based in part at least on George Thornton's material and was quite confident that the number FL-10-65 doesn't appear. If George had no note of it, I would have been confident it didn't exist. However, it could have got lost between George and Denis or between Denis and me.

How confident are you of the South African car. Does it have any race history in South Africa? Any race history before leaving the UK?

Allen

[Ted Walker]

Allen. There was lots of paperwork with the car. It had (or has) a Proper plate and the AM No was in the right areaI have the name Peter Ripley in 67, and laterL Newsome-Smith in Bullawayo.(70-80)

[David McKinney]

Ted, if you're talking about the car Michael Scott ran in HSCC events about ten years ago, I thought it had a very suspicious-looking plate - "BT.FL-10-65"

[allenbrown]

Thanks Ted. I know some people I can ask about L Newsome-Smith and I'll try to find some reference to Peter Ripley in UK 1967.

Is this the Michael Scott car, as David recalls?

Allen

[Ted Walker]

Peter Williams imported the car originally. I think Mike Scott might have ended up with it.

[allenbrown]

One of my mystery cars has been explained (partly anyway) by a later advert. David Preston's Sports Motors 1966 libre car was described as a 1966 F2-chassised car, so presumably a BT16. Malcolm Payne's 1966/67 car, also described sometimes as a BT14, was advertised as a F3/libre car, so presumably a BT18 or a BT16A. So I've scratched both of those from my list.

John Ewer's 1965 car remains a puzzle. Ewer had run a Cooper "Mk 3A" in 1964 - although he's listed as buying Mk IV (T65) FJ-14-63 in January 1964 - and he seems to sort of person who'd have bought new, not second hand. But with so many F2-chassised cars built in 1965 (33 BT16s or BT16As), I probably don't need to worry about it too much.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

FL-4-65 - Fred Smith 1965-68 - Peter Kaye 1969 ... Geoff Lambert 1971

Bill Creasey tell me he traded a FF to Bobby Howlings for "a Brabham BT14 Twin Cam especially built for hill climbs and a very nice chap who I think was called Smith". When prompted, Bill agreed it was Fred Smith. Bill raced it for a season or two and then part-exchanged it for Graham Eden's Chevron B17 (the B10/B17). Bill can't remember exact dates but I think this places his ownership of the BT14 as 1970 as he was in the B10/17 early in 1971.

Allen

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

FL-2-65 - John Butterworth 1965-68 ... missing in 1969-71 ... Geoff Inglis in 1972 ... Devon in 1978 ... John Ampt (Aus) - Noel Robson (Aus) 1988; retained 2006

Dennis Chorley April 1969 "recently bought from John Butterworth" and still with blown 1.5. Autosport 11 Apr 1969 p36.

Originally Posted by allenbrown

FL-4-65 - Fred Smith 1965-68 - Peter Kaye 1969 ... Geoff Lambert 1971

"Peter Kaye on his first outing in the ex-Freddie Smith twin cam BT14" Autosport 4 Apr 1969 p37.

[John Turner]

Michael Pullen's BT14, Brands Hatch Superprix, May 6, 2006

[Gale Racing]

Allen & Bryan,
Sorry for the tardy response on BT14 history, busy at work (earning enough to pay for the hobby).

On FL-3-65 (my car) I can mention that the car was first owned by John (EJB) Mitchell - Ford dealer in Huddesfield UK, who won the Northern BRSCC single seater Libre championshipo in the car and won 24 awards out of 28 starts. John has advised that Jack Brabham sorted the car for him when it was delivered new. Advertised in UK Autosport in early 1967 and purchased by Steve Pfeifer in USA in 1967, then throgh several USA owners - Bruce Redding 68 to 70, Steve Jizmagian 70 to 72, Tom Gouldstone 72 to 78 and Dick McGovern 78 to 94. Then imported to Australia and owned by George Goodare 94 to 2000 tehn Brian Wilson 00 to 01 and John Gale from 01 onwards. I have been provided with photos and information on the car by all owners except Tom Gouldstone (deceased).

Interesting snippets include Pfeifer repainting hte car British Racing Green. Redding repainted it white. Jizmagian repainted it yellow (the photos show it as canary yellow). Jizmagian also fitted front and rear wings to the car in 1971 (the photos show it was repainted Purple when the wings were fitted - very 70's). Jizmagian has also provided me with a photo of the car after a major shunt at Leguna Seca in Nov 71. Gouldstone also had a major shunt at Leguna Seca in Nov 1975 where it became airborne when spinning down the main straight. The cars SCCA logbook rather criptically records "All 4 corners severely damaged".

Dick McGovern purchased the car from Gouldstone without engine / gearbox and stored the frame plus some boxes of bits in his garage for many years intending to restore. Dick was later able to obtain historical information on the car from Gouldstone's widow in 1996. Photos of it in this condition prior to its import into Australia in 1994 illustrate it was in a worn state.

It has a CAMS Log Book H1228, CofD: M.012.08.03 and FIA:012.0803 and USA SCCA Log Book: 19-199.

John Gale

[Gale Racing]

Allen & Bryan,

On Arch Motors frame numbers, information I have come across through correspondence with Duncan Rabagliati (UK) or John Hafkenschiel (USA) or from adverts or correspondence with owners is as follows:

FL-2-65 : AM4 (as advised by Rabagliati)
FL-3-65 : AM8 (owned by John Gale)
FL-6-65 : AM25 (as advised by Roger Newman - current owner)
FL-7-65 : AM22 (as advised by Rabagliati)
FL-9-65 : AM9 (as advised by David Newton)

Roger Newman has advised that his car was owned by Rodney Bloor (UK) Sports Motors - Manchester in 1965, then David Bridges from 65 to 66, then John Davies in 66, then a gap, then Alan Baillie from 92 to 98 and Roger from 98 onwards. Roger may have more up to date information however.

David Newton advises that his car has had the following history: Robert Jean Sauvage (French) from 1980 to 1984, Leo Schildkamp (Dutch) from 84 to 89 and De Mortier (Belgian) from 89 to 2000 and Newton from 2000 onwards.

I did see that there was a FL-9-65 advertised on Race-cars.com in October 2002 supposedly with HMSA & CSRG logbooks for $40,000 (California USA. Advert says restored in 1965.

David Newton also advertised his car for sale in April 2004 in Motorsport (UK) for 30,000 pounds.

I understand from Rabagliati that FL-7-65 was first owned by Jackie Epstein.

I did write a letter to Arch Motors a number of years ago asking about how they numbered chassies from year to year and model to model. I will dig it out the response and advise.

John Gale (FL-3-65)

[Bryan Miller]

Dear John,

And about time too.

Bryan.

[Marcus Mussa]

BT14 chassis FL/8/65 is for sale next week at the Coys auction in Monaco.

[Gale Racing]

Further to yesterdays comments on AM Numbers for BT14's, I wrote to Arch Motors in Cambridgeshire UK in Jan 2002 asking about the sequence and relevence of AM Numbers.

Mr Bruce Robinson, Director of Arch Motors wrote back on 30 Jan 02 to advise that: "The letters AM8 denote that this was the eighth chassis (manufactured) of whatever year the car was produced in." This correlates with advice from the first owner that he purchased FL-3-65 (AM8) early in 1965 - from Manchester Motors (Ronnie Bloor owner).

I presume that one could assume from this advice that the AM numbers should be sequential (ie always be higher than the one before) if the FL numbers are listed in order.


Gale Force Racing

[Gale Racing]

Marcus,
If you happen to go to the Auction or viewing, any chance you could keep us informed of sale price and see if you can ascertain the Chassis number (AM??) or ownership history details.

[Bryan Miller]

John,

No you can't assume that the AM number will have any logical sequence to it , the frames would have come from Arch Motors or whoever and been stacked up somwhere and come off the wall/ stack in any old order when a car was needed to be built up to order.
Bryan.

[Marcus Mussa]

Originally Posted by Gale Racing

Marcus,
If you happen to go to the Auction or viewing, any chance you could keep us informed of sale price and see if you can ascertain the Chassis number (AM??) or ownership history details.

I won't be able to go to the auction, as for some reason they are holding it when most of their potential customers will be otherwise occupied, but I will try and view Friday, and will ask to be informed if the car is sold or not.
I do not think there is any dispute over the chassis number, the chassis is in the F1 Record Book.
Coys says on their website catalogue that it was brought back from NZ by an Italian, who is the seller now.
They also say it comes with a letter from the Automobile Club de Monaco confirming it was eligible for this year's race (which sounds rather improbable, unless they were desperate for entries ..). I think it would have had to start a World Championship race, which it did not.
Best regards
Marcus