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View Poll Results: Who makes the final place
Behra 4 44.44%
Bellof 5 55.56%
Bira 0 0%
Fagioli 0 0%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2 Mar 2021, 19:49 (Ref:4038051)   #1
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The GOAT - Preliminary qualifying round one

So the entry list has been compiled for the ten-tenths 2021 F1 GOAT bracket.

The full entry list consists of 67 names, which needs to come down to 64. So, the following four drivers are all competing for the final seeded place. In no particular order, the four drivers are:

Jean Behra:
Dig into the what-if literature in F1 and you will invariably come across the name Jean Behra. He could be considered a sort of Stefan Bellof of the 1950s. A more obscure, but highly enduring, cult hero. Behra won the hearts of fans with his stylish and daring driving, compared later to Gilles Villeneuve. He was rated #38 in a list of all-time greatest drivers in a poll of motorsports experts, where he was described as having the talent to win titles, although he never actually won an F1 championship race.


Stefan Bellof
In the years following his untimely death in 1985, Stefan Bellof became a cult hero among F1 fans. At the time of his death, Bellof was nearing the end of his second F1 season and had made just 20 race starts. In evaluating cases such as Bellof’s, it’s difficult to be objective. His career lives on in memory due to the moments of great brilliance and bravado, which tend to obscure anything else. There are still many fans who regard Bellof as almost a guaranteed world champion, had he lived beyond 1985. (Instead, Germany had to wait for Michael Schumacher to win the title in 1994.)

Prince Bira (Birabongse Bhanutej Bhanubandh)

'One of the world's last great "gentleman drivers" was Prince Bira of Thailand. Very wealthy drivers who could buy the best of the best and go racing were commonplace in the period between the World Wars, and Ferrari's business was built on providing race cars to such clients post-war. But Bira's standing signifies a truly great talent well beyond his financial means and gregarious personality.

Motor racing successfully at the elite level from the mid 1930s (winning the British Racing Drivers Club Gold Star in 1936, 1937 and 1938) until the mid-1950s, he also acted as a flying instructor for the British RAF during WW2 as his country was occupied. His Formula One career lasted from 1950, through 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954 and 1955.'


Luigi Fagioli
'In racing terms, Luigi Fagioli, affectionately called "The Old Abruzzi Robber" by all who liked him, was a late developer. Not before 1926, at the age of 28, did he compete in his first race. In 1930 he won his first race, the Coppa Principe di Piemonte, in a Maserati. In 1933 Fagioli became Italian champion for the Alfa Romeo squad run by Enzo Ferrari. He did not look like a racing driver. But behind the wheel he stood out because of his stamina and passion.

These characteristics earned him an invitation to join the Mercedes-Benz works team in 1934. Fagioli returned the favour with the Grand Prix wins in Monza (shared with Rudolf Caracciola) and in Lasarte, Spain. In 1935, he topped this with another first in the season opener in Monaco. He also justified his inclusion by scoring victories in the Coppa Acerbo in Pescara (1934) as well as on the Avus and in Barcelona (1935). His contract expired in 1936.

After that he drove for Auto Union, and after the Second World War for Alfa Romeo, where he ranked among the "Three Great F's": Fangio, Farina and Fagioli who by and large fought out the 1951 Formula One races among themselves. While practicing for the 1952 Monaco Grand Prix, which was held for sports cars only in that year, he lost control of his Lancia in the tunnel and crashed into a stone balustrade. "The Old Abruzzi Robber" died on 20 June 1952, three weeks after the accident.'



So which of these four drivers gets your vote for the final place?

Vote will be concluded at the end of my working day tomorrow (3rd March)
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Old 2 Mar 2021, 19:56 (Ref:4038052)   #2
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BTCC frog should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBTCC frog should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I vote for Jean Behra.
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Old 2 Mar 2021, 20:29 (Ref:4038061)   #3
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Behra for me too. Despite the sad nostalgia and undoubted brilliance in a short time frame, I don't get how Bellof is in the running. If 'Goatness' is to be based on 'what might have been' we'll end up with even more of this...

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Old 2 Mar 2021, 20:42 (Ref:4038073)   #4
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Behra for me too. Despite the sad nostalgia and undoubted brilliance in a short time frame, I don't get how Bellof is in the running.
I understand what you mean. The inclusion comes from Autosport:

'AUTOSPORT invited drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 world championship (including those who raced under F2 rules in 1952-1953) to vote for their top 10 "greatest" drivers of the world championship era.

The definition of the term "greatest" was left open for the voters to interpret for themselves.

Each top 10 was then scored on a 10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1 basis to create the overall ranking, with a countback system used to decide the order.

It was decided to focus solely on the world championship era, which began in 1950, as there are so few living links to the pre-war years.

Represented in our jury are over 9000 grand prix starts and 270 wins. As well as including current world champion Jenson Button's vote, our jury includes an astonishing cross-section of opinion.

This includes the earliest surviving world championship grand prix winner, Jose Froilan Gonzalez, the most successful driver of all time, Michael Schumacher, the oldest living driver, Paul Pietsch, and F1's first child of the 1990s, Jaime Alguersuari.

This poll represents the most comprehensive vote on the greatest world championship drivers. There have been 809 world championship grands prix (excluding the 11 Indianapolis 500s) and starters from all but 10 of these have voted.

This list represents the opinion of the greats, of grand prix winners, of those who have watched admiringly as they are lapped, of those who have been stunned by their legendary team-mates and those whose grand prix careers have been as fleeting as the blink of an eye.'
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Old 2 Mar 2021, 20:46 (Ref:4038074)   #5
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OK, fair enough but if we take into account those who sadly never reached their full potential, the Bellofs, the Villeneuves, even the Sennas, it moves the goalposts considerably, I'd say....
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Old 2 Mar 2021, 20:58 (Ref:4038079)   #6
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Originally Posted by Aysedasi View Post
OK, fair enough but if we take into account those who sadly never reached their full potential, the Bellofs, the Villeneuves, even the Sennas, it moves the goalposts considerably, I'd say....
Possibly. These things will never be perfect, and all critique is welcomed.

If nothing else, it continues the debate over what is 'great'?
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Old 2 Mar 2021, 21:38 (Ref:4038086)   #7
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Yes indeed.....
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Old 3 Mar 2021, 08:11 (Ref:4038146)   #8
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steve_r has a real shot at the podium!steve_r has a real shot at the podium!steve_r has a real shot at the podium!steve_r has a real shot at the podium!
None of the above should even be in the running for the single greatest ever driver. Who is next - Eddie Cheever?
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Old 3 Mar 2021, 19:44 (Ref:4038442)   #9
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It's the end of my working day - so this one is being called to complete the bracket.

On paper it's an upset and Fagioli would have been 64th seed - but Bellof takes the final place and now goes up against Schumacher!
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Old 4 Mar 2021, 10:20 (Ref:4038564)   #10
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It's the end of my working day - so this one is being called to complete the bracket.

On paper it's an upset and Fagioli would have been 64th seed - but Bellof takes the final place and now goes up against Schumacher!
Well as long as it's Ralph, Stephan gets my vote!
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