GT1 revival

[pink69]

This year see's the first GT1 car compete at le mans since 1999 with Toyota and Mercedes. Will this start the comeback for the GT1 caes? I hope so as cars such as McLaren , CLk , GT1 and R390 should still be racing as they are beautiful cars doing nothing but sitting in factories.

[Zero Signal]

While the return of Bentley may respark an interest in closed top prototypes, there's no chance of the GT1 cars coming back. Why? They wouldn't be competitive.

The Mercedes CLK's, Porsche GT1's, and McLaren F1's, etc. were GT1 cars that were built to the rules set for the FIA GT series which required a run of production cars, which I believe was set at 25, so technically, they were based on a roadcar, or vice-versa.

Cars like the Toyota GT-One, and Nissan R390 were GTP cars, the P standing for prototype, which is the operative word for these cars. They were built to Le Mans rules which only required one car had to be built, although not nesecerially sold. This rule was waived after 1998, so the manufactuers pulled out all the stops. Hence, a Toyota with no compromises that would make it usable for the road, and the infamous Mercedes CLR. These had more in common with a Group C car then they did with their predecessors. This is what the Bentley was built around, so it's hardly a GT1 car.

[Niall]

Small question

What ever happened to group C cars

Were the GT1 cars as fast as them ?

Niall

[Zero Signal]

Group C ended after..1992, I think. Not sure about that. Anyways, that championship ended after the costs started to spiral out of control when the rules were changed to allow 3.5L NA engines (i.e. Forumla 1 engines). The cars basically became closed wheel F1 cars, occasionally lapping fast enough to qualify for an F1 race. F1 benefitted from this, as after the Group C championship ended, Mercedes and Peugeot migrated from sportscars to F1. Sauber also went to F1 with Mercedes, whith whom they had run their sportscar program for so many years.

From what I understand, Bernie Eccllestone may have used his influence to get the FIA to change the rules in the hope that he could get two very large, and well known manufactuers to get into F1. After all, then engines are the same, so why not... Seems his little plan worked.

Oh, and to answer your question, Group C cars were quite a bit faster then GT1 cars.

[Niall]

And what about today's prototypes. WOuld they be as fast as the old Group C cars.

PS: I think it ended in 95 with Peugeot's last victory.

Niall

[Zero Signal]

Todays prototypes wouldn't be as fast either.

I'll compare the pole time from this years Donington Park race with the 1998 FIA GT round, and the 1992 round of the WSC.

1.) 1992: 1:15.285 (Peugeot 905)
2.) 2001: 1:21.122 (Audi R8)
3.) 1998: 1:22.870 (Mercedes CLK-LM)

No contest really....


Niall, I can assure you that it wasn't 1995. The Group C championship (World Sportscar Championship) ended after the 1992 season. Trust me.

However, Le Mans still allowed Group C spec cars to enter for the 1993 race, although they were trying to shift the focus to GT cars. Peugeot swept the podium that year. Eddie Irvine finished fourth in a Toyota.

[Niall]

Sorry, I meant 94 but I was still wrong.

Its a pitty that the FIA gave up on Group C.

Even they looked better than Today's cars. Sadly I don't remember them very well. I have been watching F1 since 89 but not Le Mans.

Do you have any idea of what sort of power that these engines would have been putting out.

Ironic that you would gain power through efficiency.

Niall

[Zero Signal]

No idea what sort of power they would be putting out. I would think that it could have been somewhere between 650 and 800.

I don't think it was the FIA that gave up on Group C, at least not initially. The teams, partcularly the smaller ones didn't like the 3.5L rule change and left, due to the huge costs that would be involved, and because there old cars, like Porsche 962's, etc. were now hopelessly uncompetitive compared to a Peugeot, Toyota, or Jag. Once the private teams, started leaving, the manufactuers began to lose interest, and the series died. Most races had ten or less cars entered in the last year of the WSC. The FIA didn't really have much of a choice but to put an end to the championship.

I never got a chance to see any of these cars race either. Then again they never would have been on TV over here anyways, so I doubt I missed much in that respect.

My interest in sportscar racing only really began when I heard that Greg Moore was going to compete in the US rounds of the 1997 FIA GT Championship. After seeing those races on TV, I became hooked, and I've been trying to learn more about the history.

[Niall]

i have even heard that these cars were as fast as the F1 cars of the day.

THis is because these cars were allowed to use Venturi's and didn't have the now regulatory flat bottom on them.

Niall

[Zero Signal]

That's right, they had huge tunnels back then. They produced enough downforce that they could really trim the cars out for top speed at Le Mans. The size of the tunnels were being cut down in the late eighties, as there was some concern about the speed of the cars on the Mulsanne straight, and the potential disaster that could happen if something went wrong at 250 MPH.

They weren't quite as fast as F1 cars though. Alain Prost's pole time at Donington in 1993 was 1:10.458, almost 5 seconds quicker than the Peugeot time a year earler. The 3.5L cars were easily the fastest of the Group C cars.

[Niall]

I think it really is a pitty that they threw in 2 chicanes in the mulsanne straight. i bet it must have been spectacular to see the cars doing 250 over that famous crest.

Niall

[Zero Signal]

Speedvision just showed a clip of a Mercedes and a Jaguar going down the Mulsanne without the chicanes. Very impressive.

[Niall]

i acctually saw a review of all Le Mans races from 83 onwards on Eurosport a few ngihts back.

The speeds were mighty impressive. Jaguar have the all time record at le Mans with 253 mph going down Mulsanne.

THose were the days.

Niall

[Ian Jones]

Group C racing info fronm this years revival races can be found at
www.groupc-racing.co.uk photos at
www.webshowroom.co.uk/rallyphotos
The next race is at Nurburgring August 11 featuring hopefully at least five Jaguar XJRs,Porsche 956/962 and many others whilst last round will be over August Bank Holiday at Silverstone featuring a 2
hour race on Saturday night with pitstops and 1hour sprint race on
Monday.
Hopefully Jochen Mass<Mercedes> and Derek Bell<Porsche>will be there.