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Old 8 Dec 2018, 20:00 (Ref:3868831)   #826
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He's wrong. The simulator I use for example has laser scanned tracks and cars. All the bumps on the real track are 100% replicated in the sim. A few seconds of googling will show you many pro drivers using that simulation to get ready for races. It will never be 100% the same of course but 'not comparable' is way off the mark.
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 20:03 (Ref:3868832)   #827
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Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post
Have you?
Almost daily, when I can. Anyone can, providing time and a decent wheel. In fact, a few days ago I was overtaken by Lando Norris while racing a Formula Renault 3.5. He disappeared into the distance very very quickly.

Anway, straying from the point. Your claim about the driver 'not making a difference' simply doesn't hold up in any way.
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 20:11 (Ref:3868833)   #828
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Almost daily, when I can. Anyone can, providing time and a decent wheel. In fact, a few days ago I was overtaken by Lando Norris while racing a Formula Renault 3.5. He disappeared into the distance very very quickly.

Anway, straying from the point. Your claim about the driver 'not making a difference' simply doesn't hold up in any way.
You're still missing the point. Deliberately. Or you're being obtuse just for the sake of it. One or the other. I'm afraid I decline to bow to your omniscience.
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 20:12 (Ref:3868834)   #829
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He's wrong. The simulator I use for example has laser scanned tracks and cars. All the bumps on the real track are 100% replicated in the sim. A few seconds of googling will show you many pro drivers using that simulation to get ready for races. It will never be 100% the same of course but 'not comparable' is way off the mark.
He's a 5x WDC, so I'm inclined to go with what Lewis says.

How much is the simulator you use and what make?
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 20:21 (Ref:3868836)   #830
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You're still missing the point.
Please, do enlighten me then. What is the point?
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 20:22 (Ref:3868837)   #831
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He's a 5x WDC, so I'm inclined to go with what Lewis says.
He's demonstrably wrong in what he says so good luck with that
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 20:29 (Ref:3868838)   #832
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the thread has moved on but still wanted to respond to a couple of things from a few pages back.

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To keep making cars faster makes it more difficult for drivers to actually race due to the time compression that takes place. I have sat beside a lower formula single seat driver in a simulator and to watch him drive and make decisions makes me look on in awe at what F1 drivers do every lap.
thank you for the response and i feel i have a better understanding of your point now.

so for sure i see your overall point that, like at Bristol, the speed and length of track has approached a point where there isnt enough time for human reaction time to factor into the equation.

i guess my response is that F1 still has a long way to go before the natural time limits of well time create a situation where the need to make split second decisions disappears. the logic of your point imo is sound , im not so sure its a problem which needs immediate remedy.

although, as the moment of being 'too fast' does approach, would this period not benefit drivers who can make these split second choices faster, better, react more quickly?

to use an antiquated phrase, won't this separate the men from the boys?

granted this would all be much more of a visceral experience to watch if there was less telemetry and technological aides being used to remove the need for a quick witted driver so to speak.

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Saying you want to see racing while at the same time advocating for more cars standing on the side of the road is laughable at best
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Proper sand traps would also punish driver error, rather than driving about on asphalt and setting a faster lap!
i go back and forth on this one...i want to see more uncertainty as well as more of a penalty for driver error but at the same time i showed up to watch all 20 cars race and increasingly one of the things i enjoy most about a race is the prospect of seeing a brilliant recovery drive. getting stuck in the sand is a bit too unforgiving imo and potentially robs of one of the few instances of 'racing' we actually do see in F1 race these days.

but that said, and as you have said before EffectiveSprinkles is that most of the changes being proposed here have very little chance of ever being implemented, certainly the notion of a budget cap is high on the list of will never happen. and i will, no doubt, be better served by coming to terms with that.

so i go back to sand traps and the inevitable SC (as opposed to a VSC) that will come out as the beached car is rescued.

if the teams arent going to change their ways and if the running order is typically lined up in order of the team that spends the most to the team that spends the least then perhaps there is some virtue in seeing the field get bunched up a few times a race and thereby eliminating this relative lap time advantage the top teams have?

arguably, more sand traps is a simple and reasonably easily implemented solution to this particular problem...all be it, which i suppose is an 'artificial' type solution

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Trouble is, when you legislate for success you completely miss the point of competition in the first place.
i have to say, rereading my posts on this i really do have to wonder if my point of view (attempting to equalize the field through limiting money and thereby restricting performance) is actually advocating a removal of the type of competition i would like to see/hope to see again in F1.

gonna have to think on that one for a bit.
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 20:34 (Ref:3868839)   #833
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Please, do enlighten me then. What is the point?
I don't think so. Time to let a few other members voice some opinions on things, I think. I'm fresh out of stamina for this one.
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 20:43 (Ref:3868841)   #834
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He's demonstrably wrong in what he says so good luck with that
Sounds like he's demonstrably wright in what he says. He's got 5 WDCs that prove it.
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 21:04 (Ref:3868845)   #835
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Sounds like he's demonstrably wright in what he says. He's got 5 WDCs that prove it.
So the fact he won a few F1 world championships makes him right on everything even if he says something that's completely and utterly wrong? Gotcha

PS: he says the bumps aren't there. They are because the tracks are laserscanned. He has no idea what he's talking about.
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 21:05 (Ref:3868846)   #836
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I don't think so. Time to let a few other members voice some opinions on things, I think. I'm fresh out of stamina for this one.
Then why involve yourself in the first place? This cryptic back and forth contributes absolutely nothing.
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 21:37 (Ref:3868852)   #837
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It’s time to move on now. All has been said that can be.

You’ve missed the other mods saying this. Perhaps they were too subtle. This post isn’t. Move on.
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 21:41 (Ref:3868853)   #838
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So the fact he won a few F1 world championships makes him right on everything even if he says something that's completely and utterly wrong? Gotcha

PS: he says the bumps aren't there. They are because the tracks are laserscanned. He has no idea what he's talking about.
No one said, winning a few F1 world championships made him right on everything. Regarding the bumps on the track, you need to take that up with Lewis as you're the one saying, he has no idea what he's talking about.
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 22:54 (Ref:3868861)   #839
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No one said, winning a few F1 world championships made him right on everything. Regarding the bumps on the track, you need to take that up with Lewis as you're the one saying, he has no idea what he's talking about.
It is really interesting to see which drivers dislike the simulators:

Schumacher - made him motion sick and felt it was a waste of time.

Raikkonen - told Sauber, who don't have a simulator not to bother, he had one at home, PlayStation. Vettel reckoned that was why Kimi was going to Sauber, because he hated the simulator so much.

Hamilton - clearly finds the simulator a waste of his time.

At the end of the day the simulator is probably a tool for the engineers and not the drivers at the ultimate edge of performance, sure it teaches you where the track goes and what to look out for, but it will miss the subtleties.

This was a good cool down room discussion about the effect of the wind on the cars at Abu Dahbi:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUSfWqvw1x4
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Old 8 Dec 2018, 23:51 (Ref:3868873)   #840
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It’s been an interesting discussion over the past page or so!

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At the end of the day the simulator is probably a tool for the engineers and not the drivers at the ultimate edge of performance, sure it teaches you where the track goes and what to look out for, but it will miss the subtleties.
So, I generally agree with the above, but with a few qualifications. I think drivers like Lewis are at the top of the game, know the tracks they race at, and it’s likely that simulators may not give them much. So, yeah, it may be a waste of their time outside of learning a new circuit (which is rare for them). I would say his opinion speaks to his experience and situation which is rare in the larger population of “racers”.

If the simulator does a good job of modeling the dynamics of the car, then it will be a big help to engineers as they can test virtual configurations and modifications and get feedback from the simulator drivers. Teams wouldn’t do it if they didn’t think it didn’t help.

With all of that being said, I think the article posted earlier... as written... doesn’t pay enough respect to good simulators (those that are a step above gaming consoles). If the author accurately quote Lewis, then I think Lewis painted with a wide brush and was wrong to do so. Or maybe Lewis should consider that “he” is not the primary consumer/target of that specific technology within the team.

Richard
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Old 9 Dec 2018, 05:12 (Ref:3868893)   #841
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Unless the team was running a new driver, the old system of testing was all about engineering. So in that context Richard's post makes sense.

I'd still suggest that the best simulators can't replicate g forces etc. So the psychological part of racing "flat through Eau Rouge" if you will, won't be replicated.
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Old 9 Dec 2018, 05:26 (Ref:3868896)   #842
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Unless the team was running a new driver, the old system of testing was all about engineering. So in that context Richard's post makes sense.

I'd still suggest that the best simulators can't replicate g forces etc. So the psychological part of racing "flat through Eau Rouge" if you will, won't be replicated.
To quote from that Autosport article: "Hamilton said the simulator was more use to engineers than drivers, because the sensations of driving a real car cannot be replicated correctly in a sim."
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Old 9 Dec 2018, 07:36 (Ref:3868902)   #843
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So you are saying because a driver's going too fast, their reaction time and decision making is impaired, hence the lack of overtaking.
That is exactly what happens when the lap times get too short, the time compression leaves the driver with less and less options. Then of course on top of steering the car he is getting orders from the pit to change a hundred things and we as humans only have so much capacity to manage all this stuff. My experience is I can tell a good driver because he can multi skill in the car and then give a detailed report of what is happening, it takes a lot more to overwhelm him than an average good driver. This sort of stuff unfortunately gets very little or no discussion.
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Old 9 Dec 2018, 08:14 (Ref:3868907)   #844
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Imagine if there was no telemetry during the race. That would give drivers more mechanical knowledge
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Old 9 Dec 2018, 08:44 (Ref:3868909)   #845
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So the fact he won a few F1 world championships makes him right on everything even if he says something that's completely and utterly wrong? Gotcha

PS: he says the bumps aren't there. They are because the tracks are laserscanned. He has no idea what he's talking about.
Classic troll combative statement to wind people up. Has this forum got an ignore button?
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Old 9 Dec 2018, 10:28 (Ref:3868911)   #846
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Old 9 Dec 2018, 10:31 (Ref:3868915)   #847
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Soo, whilst I'm not anti-technology and I do agree that sims are for the engineers, the same as physical testing was back in the day. The costs of running the sims and all that CFD work, must be astronomical. Think what could be spent if they didn't have those things but had a test team doing the physical work and running in public so the average punter could see them at work. Surely that would be an improvement for F1 and a win for all concerned?
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Old 9 Dec 2018, 12:28 (Ref:3868934)   #848
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Soo, whilst I'm not anti-technology and I do agree that sims are for the engineers, the same as physical testing was back in the day. The costs of running the sims and all that CFD work, must be astronomical. Think what could be spent if they didn't have those things but had a test team doing the physical work and running in public so the average punter could see them at work. Surely that would be an improvement for F1 and a win for all concerned?
But the whole point in the sims is it's cheaper to run than the physical car. They aren't cheap, but they don't require a full team of engineers and mechanics to fly out to a circuit, hire the circuit, and provide food/accommodation for everybody. And then the running costs of tyres, fuel, and general wear and tear, not only on the cars, but all of the equipment too. None of that exists with a simulator. And then you can test things which you haven't developed, to know if it's a route to go down as well.

Simulators aren't cheap, but it's cheaper than sending teams of people around the world to test.
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Old 9 Dec 2018, 12:35 (Ref:3868935)   #849
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Yes I understand that point too, but coupled with the CFD and other technology, the entire exercise becomes searingly expensive. The original idea of banning testing was because it was deemed too expensive. So they developed SIMs to do the job. The teams now employ a large number of technicians to operate and interpret the result from the SIMs. Kind of self defeating really.

Yes the results are far more accurate than achieved by testing but if we are talking about improving F1 overall, then reverting to testing in season carries three (for me) benefits; 1, there's more opportunity for the fans to see the cars; 2, the level of sophistication of the cars would naturally reduce since physical testing is less accurate than a SI; and, 3, it would be less costly (now).
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Old 9 Dec 2018, 13:12 (Ref:3868938)   #850
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I 100% agree it would improve the sport (especially if testing was open to the public, for the reasons you mention), but I'm not sure the costs would be decreased in doing so. I don't see how the sophistication of the cars would reduce, as this requires engineers to unlearn things. They could maybe advance at a reduced rate, but they certainly would not become less advanced. Knowledge is cumulative.
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