Frode Holte C30

[1975DCS]

Maybe I missed something on this forum, but I came across the C30, haven't seen it earlier:



To be honest I think it doesn't look as bad as I expected, full story here:
http://www.rallycross.hu/holterallycrossnorden.html

[schanche]

Yep like the look of that,just need Nottveit to think about one then we can get the big viking back in the Volvo

[chasing cars]

3rd place on its debut at Holjes. Hopefully this will encourage a few others to build a C30

[rich_cooper]

I love it

Its good to see other things than Fords and Citroens.

Just wish more would use Impreza's and Evo's aswell

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by rich_cooper

I love it

Its good to see other things than Fords and Citroens.

Just wish more would use Impreza's and Evo's aswell

Yes! It is a surprise to see those missing in the 4x4 turbocharge competition. This would attract new supporters as these are the closest you can get to an ERC/WRC and if you want to be your own Gronholm, these are the cars to have...

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by rich_cooper

Just wish more would use Impreza's and Evo's aswell

Yes, yes, YES!

[JAG]

I do wish more rallycross teams retained the headlights at least in sticker form.

Without them cars sometimes lose their character.

[chunder]

Two points here

One is that the reason why a lot of people dont use Mitsubishi and Subaru cars is that they are not easily tunable for rallycross. Citroen and Ford tuners have been involved in rally and rallycross for many years and know exactly how to get power from those cars.

There have been examples, notably Oplands Mitsy and van Mechelens Impreza, but also remmebr Eklund had to Twin Turbo his to be competitive and he soon gave that up for teh more tunable Saab.

Second thig is that I adore cars with no lights!! THey lok more menacing and its one of the few things that gives rallycross some real hard look. Welchs Xtrac, Dimis original Quattro, all the Mk2 Escorts with the cut out grill, they all looked awesome!

Might not look PR friendly, but I doubt that hurts rallycross too much, hence why only really manufacturer backed teams use light fill ins!

[GOLDFINGER]

looks fantastic then i love the road version

[rs 200]

Originally Posted by chunder

Two points here

One is that the reason why a lot of people dont use Mitsubishi and Subaru cars is that they are not easily tunable for rallycross. Citroen and Ford tuners have been involved in rally and rallycross for many years and know exactly how to get power from those cars.

There have been examples, notably Oplands Mitsy and van Mechelens Impreza, but also remmebr Eklund had to Twin Turbo his to be competitive and he soon gave that up for teh more tunable Saab.

Second thig is that I adore cars with no lights!! THey lok more menacing and its one of the few things that gives rallycross some real hard look. Welchs Xtrac, Dimis original Quattro, all the Mk2 Escorts with the cut out grill, they all looked awesome!

Might not look PR friendly, but I doubt that hurts rallycross too much, hence why only really manufacturer backed teams use light fill ins!

i would say any car would be quick and tunable if the right person builds it ,most rallyx cars use the same bits now days just put together better by some which have more cash ,eg who would have used an astra back then ,welch did and it did work a bit more cash would have helped ,martins astra odd ball car but it worked ,this is one thing that i saw over the years with rallyx is anything will fit ,you make it fit and work ,days of beetles with cosworth hanging out the boot ,sterkens fiesta 4x4 cosworth with the alternator under the dash driven from cams.
as for saabs more tunable than subarus i dont think so have we seen many ex wrc converted no ,there is one reason why them irish have them all and all they do is rally every weekend ,if only we did the same you lucky lot over there ,
may be as wrc is fading out we may see more converted to run in rallycross you never no

[dcdesign]

Subaru's work in WRC, because the power is limited there... the base is provided already, and with the homologated tuning bits, you have yourself a good car...

In rallycross, they need more power, and because most tuners have much experience and bits for inline-4s, they usually don't got the same bits for boxers, it's much better to devellop parts that can be used on 10 different engines, then parts which could only work with a Subaru engine

The reason for the lack of Lancers, is that the Lancer has a tranverse engine, and in rallycross longitudonal has proven to be much more effective...

And a main reason for the lack of Subaru's and Mitsubishi's in general, is the distance to Japan... When you're Ford has parts which needs replacement, you get them easily, for Japan car parts, it is possible that you have to wait months for them, go ask Huybs (the builders of the David Binks Lancer)

And no, no real headlights, or headlight stickers: you recognise a real rallycross car by the fact, that it has none... and yeah, also the Escort Cosworth and WRC's looked nixe, with the black headlights, and car coloured blinkers...

[chunder]

Well to be fair Welch only really used the Opel coz he was so involved with Xtrac and they bought the transmission off them for the 4S, that car was never really used or rally and John was able to buy it cheapish I would imagine, seeing as though it was banned before it was used. But he had a lot of work to convert it to a turbo etc, but the basic formula was already there! Manta 400 block, 4wd system etc. Not really a straight up fabrication like the original Xtrac.

As for others, well I cant remember any Cosworth Beetles!! I don't think Nordstrom, Holm, Nyvall etc were using Cossie lumps! Harrold may have done praps, and most of the cars running in the top league post Group B were using SOME proven parts, be they tranmission, engine or box

Oplands car was built by Gtech, who at the time specialised in unique cars as Will was such a clever bloke and had the reputation of making things work. He also built Bells Toyota, which would have been a ERC winner in the right hands I'm sure. But even that car used plenty of TTE tech.

Subaru and Mitsubishi (away from the Jap tuning world which is mainly drag and time attack based) tuning is pretty hard to come by for rallycross, and to be honest if you are going to use something why not buy proven. The Cosworth motor is proven as are the Citroen and VW based ones. Why develop a car from scratch when you buy almost off the shelf proven winners? Unless you have a bottomless pit. Its what made the Group B era our golden age remember?

Saab tuning may not be huge over here but in Sweden where Per is from there is Trollspeed, and they were tuning Saabs to ERC titles for many years before Per started using them!! Norstedt, Kallio etc. Hence the use of Volvo's aswell, the Volvo N/A market is amazing, 3 litre 4 pots with 330hp, amazing tech!

[MiniMadness]

Originally Posted by chunder

As for others, well I cant remember any Cosworth Beetles!! I don't think Nordstrom, Holm, Nyvall etc were using Cossie lumps! Harrold may have done praps, and most of the cars running in the top league post Group B were using SOME proven parts, be they tranmission, engine or box

A bit off the subject, but didn't someone mention Beetle's. Looks like Peter Harrold raced a quad cam 16v Subaru headed turbo engine in his Beetle. I believe the car was 4wd but converted back to 2wd -

http://sites.google.com/site/ppjracing/

I also remember Willy Vevers (I may have spelt his name worng) what what was his spec ? Then there's Nordstrom and Opland etc ... Over to your Chunder you must know

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by dcdesign

The reason for the lack of Lancers, is that the Lancer has a tranverse engine, and in rallycross longitudonal has proven to be much more effective...

That is why it is so odd that Mad Mark was driving the new Laboulle C4 with transverse engine...

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by chunder

Why develop a car from scratch when you buy almost off the shelf proven winners? Unless you have a bottomless pit.

I think this has hit the nail firmly on the head. If Subaru or Mitsubishi had a works team in Europe (in the same way Citroen do for example) then I feel sure that the Impreza and Evo could, or rather would, be competitive rallycross cars. You just need that initial funding and R&D push that a manufacturer (or loaded privateer!) can provide.

We know that the Subaru lump (in both EJ20 and EJ25 form) can produce the required power for ERC as there a huge number of tuned Impreza's running big BHP on these shores (I appreciate that these cars are tuned for different purposes, but its proof the engines can reliably handle that sort of power). The issue with parts is a fair one, though I have heard that Mitsubishi's are particularly bad for spares. There are certainly no shortage of tuners for Subaru over here; Prodrive, Roger Clark Motorsport... all with the expertise (in my opinion anyway) to make a rallycross Impreza work - sadly all very expensive companies to deal with though!

Citroen have always annoyed me in that they don't reflect their motorsport success in their roadcars - there is no "RS" or "STi" in the showrooms. You can't argue with the fact they continually pour money into - and succeed - at building successful rally and rallycross cars (as well as providing global sponsorship for rally series). Subaru are a company that has gained massive commercial success through motorsport, yet Subaru Europe don't seem willing to fund any major motosport programmes over here - very frustrating!

I'm looking to see what sort of car Subaru America can turn out for this years X-Games rallycross (and the subsequent US rallycross rounds later in the year). If Subaru America can put something decent together then put it in the hands of Isachsen, I'll be very interested to see how it shapes up against the Olsberg prepared Fords - and whether it persuades Subaru Worldwide to get their finger out and start participating in the ERC!

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

Citroen have always annoyed me in that they don't reflect their motorsport success in their roadcars - there is no "RS" or "STi" in the showrooms. You can't argue with the fact they continually pour money into - and succeed - at building successful rally and rallycross cars (as well as providing global sponsorship for rally series).

Oh just imagine a roadgoing 206/207 or Xsara/C4 WRC look a like with specs like an EVO FQ340, that would be awesome!

No instead they bring out an 308 with an 1.6 engine and dear to call it GTI! Well that's what we call a warm hatch... Like Golf GT...

[rs 200]

As for not using evo's because the engine is the wrong way is crap every rallycross out there was transverse and saying engine parts are the same for 4 cyl engines is crap as well ,it is very easy to get 5oo bhp from any 4 cyl engine most parts are usa born eg steel rods cranks etc ,and all is used from std engine is block ,bare head the rest is aftermarket at that hp ,same with boxer engine there are loads of tuners out there that can get 500hp out of them ,as for parts from japan what do they need shells ,the pannels are made here if needed gearbox plenty to choose from in europe ,suspension same as said its down to money ,
and do we remember a peugeot 306 which was made a few years back bit odd i am sure it was the only one well that was any good and its still going today at the top end ,as said anything will work with the right people and aftermarket parts ,
ford focus uses nothing from its road car not even engine got the old yb in them .citroen same again uses the old ew 7/10 engine thats not what c 4 uses ,

[1975DCS]

Originally Posted by rs 200

and do we remember a peugeot 306 which was made a few years back bit odd i am sure it was the only one well that was any good and its still going today at the top end ,as said anything will work with the right people and aftermarket parts ,
ford focus uses nothing from its road car not even engine got the old yb in them .citroen same again uses the old ew 7/10 engine thats not what c 4 uses ,

Yeap! That is what I am telling all those years, it is not the year of the shell that makes an Rallycross car "old", it is the parts that makes the difference. I am sure Hansen can build any old or new Citroën to the same speed as the current C4...

And indeed the Cosworth engine is the ultimate prove that age doesn't matter. Ok, the engines are much different than the original were in the 80's and 90's and also features some new technologies, some as simple as the 4 direct firing bobines replacing the very dated old system with rotor and leads and is also better than the WRC spec system with 2 bobines...

About the Evo engines, I have no doubt if Americans can build 1000 bhp drag engines, a reliable 550 bhp cannot be build. There are so much parts to chose from, either from Japanese and American tuners (like manifolds, turbo's, pistons, crankshafts) as parts from WRC's and A8 Rallycars (like ALS and gearboxes). The engine position of a WRC with transverse engine could be an advantage if it can cope with the torque.

But the Evo or Impreza has yet to prove itself, maybe someday someone does? Norris maybe?

[chunder]

The gearbox issue of using transverse engines was all sorted many years ago when Schanche developed his concentric gearbox that converted a transverse power into a long boxthat could be better used. He developed this on the second green Escort and it was adapted to be used on many cars of the time.

I am not sure if Martin sold this idea to Ford but Msport used the same thing on its Focis WRC when released in 99, and it was also used in the hyundai, SEAT and I think206 WRC cars, though perhaps not in teh same form.

Converting the pwoer is the issue and unless you buy one of these obscenely expensive boxes you cant really compete unless you develop your own! And why would you when the bits are there already from Quaife or Xtrac for a YB Focus or VW based engine.

Will was a top man for all this, he used the Zetec and it didnt tkae off sadly

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by 1975DCS

No instead they bring out an 308 with an 1.6 engine and dear to call it GTI! Well that's what we call a warm hatch... Like Golf GT...

My favorite was the recent "Styled by Loeb" C4 - the top model available in the range was a 1.6 Diesel!

Originally Posted by 1975DCS

But the Evo or Impreza has yet to prove itself, maybe someday someone does? Norris maybe?

I'm still not sure on Norris Designs. I've seen their demo car on many occasions, but I've never once seen it run without it going bang! I wonder if they would be better off with a 750/800 BHP car that runs reliably, rather then a 950 BHP car that is phenomenally quick for about 5 minutes.

The best chance for the Evo at the moment is Steve Hill Motorsport in the UK. Steve Hill obviously has experience with Evo's, and the potential in the car is there, but he seems to be forever plagued by reliability problems. Of course he is a privateer trying to develop a brand new chassis though, so development "speed bumps" are inevitable. He seemed to have the same problem with his previous Evo though - great performance up to the point where something went bang.

I'm biased as my preference is with Subaru but, looking at it realistically, I think a properly funded Subaru has more potential to succeed in rallycross as you have a much greater selection of WRC parts to utilise. If you look at companies like Roger Clark Motorsport, they have built numerous EJ20 engines running 600+ BHP (rallycross territory) which have gone on to be regularly (and reliably) raced.

[Kevin McCann]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

My favorite was the recent "Styled by Loeb" C4 - the top model available in the range was a 1.6 Diesel!


I'm still not sure on Norris Designs. I've seen their demo car on many occasions, but I've never once seen it run without it going bang! I wonder if they would be better off with a 750/800 BHP car that runs reliably, rather then a 950 BHP car that is phenomenally quick for about 5 minutes.

The best chance for the Evo at the moment is Steve Hill Motorsport in the UK. Steve Hill obviously has experience with Evo's, and the potential in the car is there, but he seems to be forever plagued by reliability problems. Of course he is a privateer trying to develop a brand new chassis though, so development "speed bumps" are inevitable. He seemed to have the same problem with his previous Evo though - great performance up to the point where something went bang.

I'm biased as my preference is with Subaru but, looking at it realistically, I think a properly funded Subaru has more potential to succeed in rallycross as you have a much greater selection of WRC parts to utilise. If you look at companies like Roger Clark Motorsport, they have built numerous EJ20 engines running 600+ BHP (rallycross territory) which have gone on to be regularly (and reliably) raced.

The main problem 45mm restrictor!! Massive torque increase, we would be in 650-700 bhp without it but at 550bhp it SHOULD be reliable, as it is not at the moment we are trying to find reliability but the funds are not available to go any further at this moment in time. Rallycross engines are normally pushed to the extreme horse power and torque wise which is why the reliability is not always there.As you have seen running up to 100 bhp behind the top cars is not very entertaining or rewarding for us small teams but we will always give our all and anyone who knows us knows this is so.

[tbtstt]

Originally Posted by Kevin McCann

The main problem 45mm restrictor!! Massive torque increase, we would be in 650-700 bhp without it but at 550bhp it SHOULD be reliable, as it is not at the moment we are trying to find reliability but the funds are not available to go any further at this moment in time. Rallycross engines are normally pushed to the extreme horse power and torque wise which is why the reliability is not always there.

Yeah, I appreciate that my comments on companies like RCM etc. building "bullet proof" engines is to be taken with a pinch of salt, as rallycross really ramps up the demand on the engine. I hope you (nor any other driver) don't interpret my comment on Steve Hill/privateers as an insult as that wasn't my intention. I admire any driver who opts to bring something unique to the grid (especially a Subaru! ), rather than opt for something that has already been developed. I understand that not all the privateers can throw money at cars they are developing themselves. I'm sure that just participating in the Supercar class must be a blast, but it must be pretty frustrating to not be on a level playing field with some of the other cars.

Originally Posted by Kevin McCann

we will always give our all and anyone who knows us knows this is so.

At the front or at the back I still enjoy seeing your (and all the cars) giving it 100% out on track. I wish that some of the privateers were able to give "factory" cars more of a run for their money but, when you are paying for the development yourselves, I guess thats something you have to work towards.

[Kevin McCann]

Originally Posted by tbtstt

Yeah, I appreciate that my comments on companies like RCM etc. building "bullet proof" engines is to be taken with a pinch of salt, as rallycross really ramps up the demand on the engine. I hope you (nor any other driver) don't interpret my comment on Steve Hill/privateers as an insult as that wasn't my intention. I admire any driver who opts to bring something unique to the grid (especially a Subaru! ), rather than opt for something that has already been developed. I understand that not all the privateers can throw money at cars they are developing themselves. I'm sure that just participating in the Supercar class must be a blast, but it must be pretty frustrating to not be on a level playing field with some of the other cars.


At the front or at the back I still enjoy seeing your (and all the cars) giving it 100% out on track. I wish that some of the privateers were able to give "factory" cars more of a run for their money but, when you are paying for the development yourselves, I guess thats something you have to work towards.

No offence taken, just thought I should explain a few things

[rs 200]

Originally Posted by chunder

The gearbox issue of using transverse engines was all sorted many years ago when Schanche developed his concentric gearbox that converted a transverse power into a long boxthat could be better used. He developed this on the second green Escort and it was adapted to be used on many cars of the time.

I am not sure if Martin sold this idea to Ford but Msport used the same thing on its Focis WRC when released in 99, and it was also used in the hyundai, SEAT and I think206 WRC cars, though perhaps not in teh same form.

i dont recall martin using transverse engine in the last escort ,i recall g box he done which had 2 front diffs so to speak on ether side of engine which still made it front to rear and reasons was cog to get engine down lower ,this was then used in the astras and sure kuypers used it or still does ,

[BOY BLUNDER]

I have to say Freddi's volvo does look nice would love to see ludvig in one again.

BB....