MG Works B/C GTs

[Peter Mallett]

I've always found these cars to be a bit more interesting than the ordinary MGB (a car that punched way above its weight). So looking around I've discovered a couple of interesting things, however I'm sure there's more to be had.

The first "GT" was an MGB with a 2004cc "B" series engine. Interestingly as I understand it GHD3 114190 was a 1967 MGC chassis and therefore ran with rear discs and the uprated front MGC torsion bar suspension.

The Works entered two GTS versions (with the wider arches etc.) one of which is RMO 699F. John Chatham allegedly took the 3 spare chassis and of course built his own car for the Targa Florio in '68(?).

Anyway what do we know of the cars and their post Sebring (racing) history?

[chunterer]

Although i'm no MG man, I think this is an excellent thread well into the traditional spirit of this sub forum Peter!

Let's stick it!!

[MGDavid]

there's several fairly definitive articles been published over the years in Safety Fast! the MGCCs magazine. A long-standing past chairman of the MGCC SW Centre owned one of the Sebring GTs for several years.
ISTR there was a possible fake/recreation story running (back in the 80s?) concerning one of the cars which allegedly was built around a fuel tank and not much more?

[MGDavid]

also lots of refs in Works Wonders by Marcus Chambers, and The works MGs by Mike Allison & Peter Browning. I'll try to summarise if I get time...

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

The first "GT" was an MGB with a 2004cc "B" series engine. Interestingly as I understand it GHD3 114190 was a 1967 MGC chassis and therefore ran with rear discs and the uprated front MGC torsion bar suspension.

Octane ran a cover story on the MGB a couple of months ago and this was featured. It mentioned that the engine was enlarged to over 2000cc to get into a prototype (?) category. IIRC the model they featured had since had a smaller engine fitted.

My copy is at home, so I tried to find a link or reference to the article. However I could only find the cover (for non-subscribers):

[MGDavid]

Peter it would be tricky for the first BGT to be built on an MGC chassis as the BGT was out in 1965 and the C did not appear until 2 years later. Maybe you meant 'first comps dept race BGT' which was LBL591E and did run at 67 Sebring in the proto class with a (just) over 2litre engine simply because the BGT had not yet been homologated.
Granted the C and CGT were in development in 67 and announced at the October 67 motor show. Allison/Browning say: "six sets of ally outer panels were produced and 3 were built up on steel MGC floorpan/bulkhead assemblies in March 67."
Two of these were RMO699F and MBL546E, the 3rd would have been the test / development / spare car (my assumption). I can't find any reference that LBL591E was a lightweight C type shell nor that it had the rear disc setup from the C. However as you know I'm a MIdget chap and my knowledge of the bigger stuff is sketchy to say the least. Also I don't have the books to date that chassis number you quoted. The book goes on to say that as the C had not been announced they could not initially use the 3 litre 6 cyl engine so for the Targa Florio in May they ran with the ex-Sebring engine, maybe this is where the confusion creeps in. Same 2004cc engine but in two different cars in successive years.....

[terence]

The "C" type engine was available but considered not ready for racing hence the use of the 2004cc unit [I know of one genuine engine that still survives,in a crate!] this is also the reason that the cars were never called "C"s originally,just GTS.There were in fact six of these shell's purchased by John,three were built up of those,the other three went off in different directions.
The original cars were finished in Tartan Red but because of the regs for the Targa Florio where all entered cars had to be presented in thier respective countrys national colour,the reason why the "Proper Cars" had Door Shuts,Underbonnet etc in Red whereas the outter surfaces were in BRG.
In this months Motor Sport,there is a letter stating that one of the "B"s is now in the states,this being LBL,BGT.
591 used to belong to Colin Pearcy,not too sure if he still own's it now though.Interesting little tale on this car,BSS was using it for one of the earlier Silverstone Coys events,when he came in he complained of the brakes seeming "odd".What had happened was that the Pegs on the OSF Minilite Wheel had all shear'ed off keeping the wheel attached but not connected to the brake disc!

[MGDavid]

more; a GHD3 prefix is a BGT shell; the CGTs are GCD prefix. Knowing the VINs of the GTSs would help further...

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by terence bower

,BSS was using it for one of the earlier Silverstone Coys events,when he came in he complained of the brakes seeming "odd".What had happened was that the Pegs on the OSF Minilite Wheel had all shear'ed off keeping the wheel attached but not connected to the brake disc!

RMO 699F and I was standing next to the front offside wheel when Vince found the play. We thought it was a bearing at first.

In fact I recall writing an article on that meeting for Safety Fast.

Originally Posted by MGDavid

more; a GHD3 prefix is a BGT shell; the CGTs are GCD prefix. Knowing the VINs of the GTSs would help further...

Well if you plug that into Google it comes up with some pics, however I believe the car had rear discs and the front suspension from the "C". Hmm.

[terence]

Thats because it is the "C" version Pete.

[Peter Mallett]

But with a GHD3 prefix?

[terence]

No,RMO was,I belive,the last car built by the works as a C as it was registered in 68.

[KA]

Just been looking through the Allison/Browning book to try and get a handle on these, and there were a lot of them...The book doesn't give chassis numbers, just registrations (and e know how unreliable an indication that can be...) but I reckon on about 14 'B's and 2 'C's....I wouldn't be surprised if some reshelling and plate-swapping went on, as some of the Bs seem to have served as both race and rally cars.

As far as I can tell they are (I'll do them in small groups as separate posts)

6DBL- debuted at Sebring '63 for Christabel Carlisle/Denise McCluggage. Can't find any further mention of this one

7DBL- debut Sebring 63 (Jim Parkinson/Jack Flaherty). Loaned to Alan Hutcheson for a couple of events in '63 (Silverstone & Spa) then used at Le Mans (Hutcheson/Hopkirk) and on the Tour de France (Andrew Hedges/John Sprinzel)- it had the Le Mans droopsnoot nose on both events. It then becomes a rallycar in 1964- used by the Morley brothers on the Monte (1st GT) and the Scottish (crashed and written off)

8DBL- starts off life as a rallycar (part of a 3-car MGB squad for the 1964 Spa-Sofia-Liege Marathon), used on the '65 Welsh by Tony Fall, before becoming a racer- Wins the Guards 1000 at Brands as a Don Moore entry (John Rhodes/Warwick Banks) then appears at Sebring in '66 in 2009cc 'Prototype form for Hopkirk/Hedges

I don't know much about MGB bodyshells, but the Scottish and particularly the Liege marathon were rough events- Would you really use an ex-race car on the Scottish, or turn a car built for the Liege into a circuit racer? I can't help wondering if they were reshelled....?

[KA]

BMO541B- the 1964 Le Mans car (Hopkirk/Hedges). Also used on the '64 Tour de France (Hedges/Sprinzel) then re-appeared (in a new shell according to the pic caption in the book) in 2004cc prototype form at Sebring in '65

BRX853B & BRX854B- the other two cars from the '64 Liege Marathon (the only time a full team of works B's appeared on a rally) '853' driven by Pauline Mayman on the Liege and RAC, and by Andrew Hedges on the '65 Nordhein-Westfalen rally- an event described by Browning as a 'glorified hunt-the-marshal club event' with tests at Zolder and the 'Ring...
'854' was used by Julien Vernaeve on the Liege, John Fitzpatrick on the RAC and Tubman/Stefanoff on the '65 Tulip

BRX855B- another racer, used on a number of outings in World Sportscar Championship rounds etc in 1966- Browning describes these as
'low-budget sorties with the drivers loaned works-prepared cars and towing them to the circuit themselves on trailers, usually without any Works mechanics present'
Some useful results though- Roger Enever/Alec Poole brought '855' home 3rd overall in the Brands 500 behind a Cobra and a GT40, and 2nd in class at Monthlery. They also used it on the 'Marathon de la Route- a 72-hour(!) event at the 'Ring which replaced the Liege Marathon rallies- but didn't finish

DRX255C- the 1965 Le Mans car, 11th o/a and 2nd in the 2-litre prototype class for Hopkirk/Hedges. The book says it was then used at Sebring in '66, in the 2-litre GT class. However, the pic on the same page clearly shows the Sebring car carrying DRX256C...Hmmm....

[KA]

GRX307D- a well-used one... Starts off as Tony Fall's 1966 Monte Carlo entry, before becoming a racer.
Targa Florio- a class win for Timo Makinen/John Rhodes
Mugello- 3rd in GT Hedges/Robin Widdows
and three outings with Vernaeve/Hedges- winning the Marathon de la Route outright, winning the GT category at Spa, and 2nd in class at Monthlery, before a final run at Sebring in '67, back with Makinen/Rhodes

HBL129D- only mention of this one is Sebring 1966 for Peter Manton/Roger Mac/Emmett Brown

JBL491D- used on the '66 Targa Florio by Handley/Hedges and the Nurburgring 1000km by Hedges/Vernaeve

MBL547E- 1967 Targa Florio, Hedges/Alec Poole

[KA]

and finally the GTs (and yes, I've only just noticed that the thread was specifically about the GTs, and not the works Bs in general.... )

LBL591E- as described by David a few posts back, debuted as an over 2litre Prototype, before the BGT was homologated, at Sebring 1967. Also appeared at Sebring in '68 and '69, and on the '68 Targa Florio. Seems to have always run as a 'B' and didn't have the lightweight panels, flared arches etc of the MGCs?

MBL546E- debut on the '67 Targa Florio in 2004cc MGB GTS form, (Hopkirk/Makinen) then fitted with the 6-cyllinder engine for Sebring and the Marathon de la Route in '68, and Sebring in '69.

RMO699F- MGC GTS- 1968 Marathon de la Route and 1969 Sebring.

If I've read the book correctly, I think that's got them all....

[MGDavid]

small point, the Marathon at the 'Ring was 84 hours, only 72 would have been a bit lightweight

[Peter Mallett]

Ok looking things up on the web we get the following for the 2004cc B

http://www.racingsportscars.com/chas...%20114190.html

This one lists entries and some Chassis numbers. Good reference here.

http://wsrp.ic.cz/french1969.html

To add to the various conspiracy theories, this is from another site:

Originally Posted by that other website.

Interesting.

Note that in this one www.them-g-c.com/index_files/Page4341.htm , 699F has a front hinged bonnet, but here www.automag.be/MG-GTS-un-prototype-prometteur, it's a normal rear hinged device. Then again, here www.them-g-c.com/index_files/Page4341.htm it is front hinged.

More to this than meets the eye?

And of course what's missing from this one http://www.mgexperience.net/motorspo...-cars/RMO699F/ is the signature bonnet opening pull in the grill.

I've got some pics of RMO from that classic meeting, if I can find them I'll scan them and post them. IIRC there's one of that offending wheel too.

Just found this about the Chatham MGC GTS. It lists a GHD3 chassis plate.

Still attatched to the latch panel is the original works Chassis plate: GHD3 114190 which was retained and transferred by the works according to Don Hayter. ...
www2.mgcars.org.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=mgbbs&mode=thread&access=31865145803060&subject=5&source=T... - Similar pages

You might notice the similarity in that chassis number to that in my first post.

[275 GTB-4]

An interesting snippet with the MGC racing program is the development of an all alloy engine....disappointed with the weight "saving" achieved when the new C Series was produced, an all ally version was cast....unfortunately it didn't work...I don't believe it was ever raced.

[Peter Mallett]

No but they ran the Ally head with triple Webers.

[GBRM]

Great to see the MG can of worms opened up; run away!!!!

As for MGCs, Colin P doesn't own any, not sure where his ex-works car went but I will say he took me out round the Silverstone GP circuit in it before I went round with my late Dad and he was half good.
The other ex-works MGCs back then was owned by Doug Smith (MG Motorsport) and I'm not sure if he still has it but I don't think so.
I have in my mind there were three ex-works MGCs but I don't remember who had the other but they all had a slight differently-coloured bottom of the front splitter/valance.

As for the MGBs, well, I'm sure Terry B will agree, that's more than one thread in itself!!

[Peter Mallett]

Yep,

This was really intended to concentrate on the GTS' which began with that B GT with the "C" chassis. It is very interesting to note that the chassis number which as has been pointed out, was a "B" GT number allegedly ended up as a "C" Sebring car with John Chatham.

Yes, can of worms maybe but it is intriguing because as we know there were some "interesting" things that "comps" did with reg numbers etc.

It doesn't stop there of course and I think if there is an interest the "B" story would also raise a few eyebrows.

Colin did indeed own RMO 699F and I think Terry knows the current owner. What is very interesting is that allegedly the bodies were built surreptitiously and BMC knew nothing about them until the Sebring race when it was too late. It would be good to know how much of the shell was aluminium because I spoke to a metallurgist who told me about the problems of putting ally with steel.

[GBRM]

Peter, you'd be best off asking the pub drinkers of Pitstone, Marsworth and Cheddington for the MGC (and to a degree 6DBL and 8DBL) history - the cars were well known on the road in the mid '80s to the mid '90s; you can even add works MGAs, MEtro Turbos and SD1s; you mentioned him earlier and you know as well as me he'll never meet a non Police PC but Vince is your man!!
Maybe Doug could be tempted though, MG Motorsport do/did have a website.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

What is very interesting is that allegedly the bodies were built surreptitiously and BMC knew nothing about them until the Sebring race when it was too late. It would be good to know how much of the shell was aluminium because I spoke to a metallurgist who told me about the problems of putting ally with steel.

Looking at the Allison/Browning book again, Browning suggests the GTS was originally intended as a rally project, rather than purely as a racer:
'The objective of the GTS was to produce a rallycar to take over from the Mini-Cooper; probably a bit ambitious, but at least to try to hold our own against the rising strength of the European opposition. The MGB chassis was basically well-proven in competitions and rigid enough to stand up torallying, or at least good enough as a starting point for a big Healey-type chassis development programme. In lightweight form it was possible to shed quite a bit of weight, while the GT was a sensible size for a rally car, certainly more attractive than a 4-door saloon.....The stages of the project were to first build a handful of prototypes, test in races then evaluate them for rallies'

As to the lightweight shells, he suggests 6 sets of special GT panels were made at Pressed Steel Fisher in Swindon- he described this as a 'tricky process' using alloy instead of steel on the standard press tools. 3 lightweight bodies were then built up by Bodies Branch at West Bromwich, and the first car built at Abingdon around a standard steel MGC floorpan/bulkhead in March '67

[KA]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Yes, can of worms maybe but it is intriguing because as we know there were some "interesting" things that "comps" did with reg numbers etc.

It doesn't stop there of course and I think if there is an interest the "B" story would also raise a few eyebrows.

Peter Browning mentions once leaving the canteen after lunch one day at Abingdon and seeing three works MGBs- one cut up and dumped in a skip after being written off, one just leaving the factory for a road test, and a third being built up from a new shell in the 'comps' shop- and all three of them were carrying the same, very well-known, works MGB registration number...