What Happened to GT1?

[The Badger]

Ok ..... if i put 3 German beers in front of you .

1 Flensburger
2 Becks
3 Warsteiner

Would you still drink a Jever first ?

Be honest

[ger80]

You put 3 beers in front of me? Hm, there is no jever to choice, so I think you will pay the 3 and I have to pay the Jever myself? Thats a different situation than
Ask the people from german gt-eins forum which beer I took to Spa for the LMS race

[The Badger]

Ask the people from GT-eins what beer they bring to Le Mans each year ..... Its not Jever !!!

I'll pay the beer ..... and the Jever !

[AU N EGL]

Gt1 Cars and beer ??

what a great combination

[ger80]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Ask the people from GT-eins what beer they bring to Le Mans each year ..... Its not Jever !!!

I'll pay the beer ..... and the Jever !

I cant remember Haralds favorite beer atm but I think we better find the way back to racing

Whats about the Porsche chassis drawings ?

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by ger80

I think we better find the way back to racing

No no, let's stick to beer! Then if something really does happen to GT1 it won't be too great a loss!

[ger80]

English people talking about beer ...
Sorry, nothing against you ...
Your beer doesnt help, maybe if you have problems with going to the toilette but not for the brain

[ger80]

Why are there different weight and restrictor for Bafle and Zakspeed Saleen now? Isnt it the same car for the SRO/FIA?

[TheNewBob]

hehe see my signature for my views on the alcohol subject.

Can't argue that an ice cold beer on a nice summer's afternoon whilst comfortably sat watching racing action from the trackside is perfection!

Be even nicer with no worries about GT1's immediate future though...

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by ger80

Why are there different weight and restrictor for Bafle and Zakspeed Saleen now? Isnt it the same car for the SRO/FIA?

They're not strictly the same car now, though, are they? Zakspeed with one of the "newer generation" S7's whilst Balfe use one of GNM's old cars. I think..?

[ger80]

Originally Posted by TheNewBob

They're not strictly the same car now, though, are they? Zakspeed with one of the "newer generation" S7's whilst Balfe use one of GNM's old cars. I think..?

Its the same than the MC12 last year? Think Vitaphone and one of the other MC12 get more weight because they have the newer aerodynamic parts.
We always blamed the Saleen factory because they did no updates. Now the did and SRO/FIA gave them additional weight ...
Sounds a little bit like Nascar .... Hope we dont get the safety car so often too in the future

[Bob Riebe]

This is a what is wrong thread, while it is dedicated to GT1, let's think what is wrong with ALMS in the entirety.

IMSA used to be one of the "Big Shows" in road racing, cars were impressive enough that losing the Can-Am was not so bad.

It was as much a "Big Show" as any Drag Racing National event.
Car for car, they were pretty much equally impressive in performace, class for class.

OK, now think of the current visual impression of IMSA cars, GT1 and LMP1 compared to this note on about drag racing, which is floating about:
--------------------

* One Top Fuel dragster 500 cubic inch Hemi engine makes more horsepower
than the first 4 rows of cars at the Daytona 500.

* A stock Dodge 426 Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to drive the
dragster's supercharger.

* With 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on overdrive, the
fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form before ignition. Cylinders
run on the verge of hydraulic lock at full throttle.

* At the stoichiometric 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitromethane the flame
front temperature measures 7050 degrees F.

* Nitromethane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above the
stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from atmospheric water
vapor by the searing exhaust gases.

* Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output of an
arc welder in each cylinder.

* Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After 1/2 way,
the engine is dieseling from compression plus the glow of exhaust valves at
1400 degrees F. The engine can only be shut down by cutting the fuel flow.

* If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds up in
the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force to blow
cylinder heads off the block in pieces or split the block in half.

* In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds dragsters must accelerate at an
average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph well before half-track, the
launch acceleration approaches 8G's.

* Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed reading
this sentence.

* The red-line is actually quite high at 9500 rpm.

* The Bottom Line: assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew worked
for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an estimated
$1,000.00 per second. The current Top Fuel dragster elapsed time record is
4.441 seconds for the quarter mile (10/05/03, Tony Schumacher). The top
speed record is 333.00 mph (533 km/h) as measured over the last 66' of the
run (09/28/03 Doug Kalitta).

Putting all of this into perspective:

You are riding the average $250,000 Honda MotoGP bike. Over a mile up the
road, a Top Fuel dragster is staged and ready to launch down a quarter mile
strip as you pass. You have the advantage of a flying start. You run the
RC211V hard up through the gears and blast across the starting line and past
the dragster at an honest 200 mph (293 ft/sec). The 'tree' goes green for
both of you at that moment. The dragster launches and starts after you. You
keep your wrist cranked hard, but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that
sears your eardrums and within 3 seconds the dragster catches and passes
you. He beats you to the finish line, a quarter mile away from where you
just passed him.

Think about it, from a standing start, the dragster had spotted you 200 mph
and not only caught, but nearly blasted you off the road when he passed you
within a mere 1320 foot long race course.
----------------------------

An impressive display that attracts Auto related companies as sponsors and hundreds of thousands of fans to several national sanctions and several more regional, and local.
Plus other exciting lower classes where make vs. make, keeps Detroit interested.
Compared to:

The IMSA which has problems with semi-legal diesel drone mobiles, and against competitors who are known entities only to true road racing gear-heads, plus GT1 cars which are trapped in a road racing scheme that more resembles short track claimer rule racing, than what road racing once stood for.
Not good to have a series where if: you build a fast car-we will slow it down; if you meet the rules and still stomp on others-we will change the rules etc., etc., etc.
As a side note, the FIA's success penalities, are directily out of US short track racing.

Drag racing is the ONLY auto racing series in the US, where auto related companies(Think big sponsor money also) participate, because they can prove their product.
Road racing used to be the main type of national racing that did that.

What is wrong, not really hard to see, the Big Show, is now a Big Joke and companies that used to spend millions to participate (especially sponsors), will not waste their money on a joke.
Bob

[Danske]

And the top fuel dragsters are just like the ones you can buy and drive on the street!

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Danske

And the top fuel dragsters are just like the ones you can buy and drive on the street!

It is about the show, giving Detroit reasons to show up, and related sponsors reasons to spend money to make money.
The old GTP and AAGT were quite radical but Detroit and big guns from Europe and Japan showed up full force, because they could put on a show and show off what their equipement was capable of when turned loose.

Quite simple really.
Bob

[JAG]

Drag racing.............hhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm.

As for giving Detroit a reason to show up, maybe they won't because they get there arses kicked by European and Japanease manufactuers/teams?

P&M Corvette must be the only successful all US program since the GT40 days!

[FIRE]

I don't see the link between manufacturer involvement/interest and drag racing. Aren't top fuel (?) drag racers 100% purpose build racing cars?

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by JAG

Drag racing.............hhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmm.

As for giving Detroit a reason to show up, maybe they won't because they get there arses kicked by European and Japanease manufactuers/teams?

P&M Corvette must be the only successful all US program since the GT40 days!

Then why arn't more European and Japanease manufactures builing or supporting teams that have current GT1 competitive cars?

Looks like 'other' some manufactures dont want to show up either.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by FIRE

I don't see the link between manufacturer involvement/interest and drag racing. Aren't top fuel (?) drag racers 100% purpose build racing cars?

Let's make this simple:
Top Fuel--Equivalent of Can-Am or sports racers.
Funny Cars--Equivalent of prototypes, or was.
Pro-Mod--Equivalent of tube frame GTX.
Pro-Stock-- Equivalent of GT1, or was until to make things simple, tubeys were allowed.
Super Stock--Equivalent of original Tran-Am.
And there are many other national, regional classes that fill gaps, and attract gear-heads of most sorts.

Road Racing used to be able to show case cars, class for class, and the SCCA had classes to fill the gaps, for decades; doesn't now.

In the UK, there are/were, classes that are unique to that side of the pond and serve areas, US classes do not.
Top fuel style Daimler 2.5; Pro Mod style Jaguars etc.

You do not see the link, well, Ford, Chevy, Dodge are all involved.
Ford revived the Boss 429 based engine to be competitive.
Chevy had S. Leonard develope a factory,verses the Arias version, Chevy hemi, to be competitive.
Dodge re-introduced a version of the sixties Hemi, to be competitive.
Pontiac and AMC die-hards financed, developed and build improved versions of their past engines, because there is a market there, and they want to be competitive.
The SCCA self-destructed (but could show life if they re-do the T-A properly) and if IMSA wants to keep the ACO happy, well--fine, but other sanctions are busy keeping US car owners, buyers and spectators happy.

History has shown that jerking people around with draconian rules is not neccessary to get finishes such as the one at Road America, but as the old saying goes, power corrupts, and the little Mussolinis sitting in sanctions HQ, are loath to lose the ability to make their subjects dance.
Bob

[minimangler]

All i can say is, get ur backsides across the pond- FIA GT has a superb GT1 field!
A lack of entries points to corvette domination to me.

[chunterer]

It's a good field but could get even better.

Now there's 2 Vettes and that number is likely to double again by next year.

Hopefully people will still see that the MC12 is good whatever penalites are thrown at it so we will see a couple more of them out again.

Also I hope that Oreca enter at least one Saleen alongside the Zakspeed car which based on the return to form for that device this year may well encourage Zakspeed to find money providers for a 2 car team in '07!

If the rumours about the Murcialago LP640 come to fruition, that would be excellent as no matter how good the current car sounds, people won't run it if it ain't quick enough.

Are there any other new GT1 potentials for next year?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Then why arn't more European and Japanease manufactures builing or supporting teams that have current GT1 competitive cars?

Looks like 'other' some manufactures dont want to show up either.

Because they want to compete with the big boys in LMP1 (Audi, Peugeot, Acura etc.) something GM seem reluctant to do.

It's easy being the big fish in a small pond.

A competitive GM entry in P1 would massively boost their credibility, obviously help the ALMS's top class, and be the biggest shot in the arm GT1 could ever hope for.

Market the P1 as GM/Corvettes technological/alternative fuel test bed, and continue to supply customer GT1's.

Or............we can more of the same!

[The Badger]

What happened to the story that GM were pulling their GT1 effort and going LMP1 next year ?

What happened to the story that their LM cars were going to stay in Europe after LM cuz they were sold ?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by JAG

Because they want to compete with the big boys in LMP1 (Audi, Peugeot, Acura etc.) something GM seem reluctant to do.

It's easy being the big fish in a small pond.

A competitive GM entry in P1 would massively boost their credibility, obviously help the ALMS's top class, and be the biggest shot in the arm GT1 could ever hope for.

Market the P1 as GM/Corvettes technological/alternative fuel test bed, and continue to supply customer GT1's.

Or............we can more of the same!

Chevy races to sell cars and engines it builds; it does not build engines to make the ACO happy.

The LMP rules are skewed so that if you do not run a purpose built (blown) engine, you are wasting time.
The old Caddy was a variation of the Indy engine; those days are gone.
Unless "prototypes" actually become something that it true to the name, no Detroit company will waste time, especially with the contrived rules.

Now if "prototypes" become something similar to the Ferrari P4/5, and rules open up, even Detroit might have a look-see.

BUT if the IMSA/ACO maintain the rule structure they have it will be--"Or............we can more of the same!"
Bob

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by The Badger

What happened to the story that GM were pulling their GT1 effort and going LMP1 next year ?

That was some far out rummor. and will not happan.

What happened to the story that their LM cars were going to stay in Europe after LM cuz they were sold ?

Could be, as they will build more C6.Rs. Normally Chevy runs four P&M corvettes, they are used every other race will the ones that were just raced get rebuilt.

C5-R/C6.R history



C5R-012
2004 - Finished in spring as the new C6.R test version.
2005 - The C6.R show car.
C6R-001

2005 - Ran the ALMS as car #3.
2005-12 - Sold to GLPK Carsport to run in FIA GT

2005-12 - Ran the ALMS as car #4.
2005-12 - Sold to Christian Schumacher’s PSI team to run in Le Mans Series (formerly Le Mans Endurance Series) and the FFSA GT, a French national GT series.

From the PSI team website: "Just before Christmas, PSI sealed a deal with GM concerning a C6.R, chassis #002. Hereby, PSI was the first team to get its hands on a C6.R, in Europe and around the world. This car (race # 64) won its class in the 24 Hours of Le Mans with Gavin/Beretta/Magnussen and finished as amazing 5th overall. It also took the ALMS title (race # 4) with Olivier Gavin and Olivier Beretta."

C6R-003

2006 - Will run the ALMS as car #3.

C6R-004

2006 - Will run the ALMS as car #4.

Items in red - Cars no longer owned by General Motors

C6R-005

Under Construction

C6R-006

Under Construction



Source: http://www.palmeter.com/

[Purist]

I know I'm a little late on this one, but JAG, I think the big issue I have with the old GT1s is that with those "specials" later on, they built race cars and then made a road car. A GT should be a road car turned into a race car, even if the modifications allowed get a bit ludicrous.

I think I said this before, but anyway, I think it could really help if the rules were augmented to allow old AGTs and Trans-Am cars to run in GT1.

I don't know what purpose-built prototypes have to do with Detroit not running LMPs. Purpose-built cars, as far as I'm concerned, have won Le Mans every year since at least 1954.

Finally, AU N EGL, my eyes really don't like that red type, so please don't make a habit of using it.