Engines in historic F1

[Roninho]

Hi,

There are a few (wealthy) guys out there racing in historic f1, like TGP and Euroboss. We all know the amounts of money being spend on engines in F1.

Now i'm wondering what kind of money is needed to keep a former f1 engine running through a season of euroboss. And how do they keep cost way lower than in f1 (since i don't think these gentleman drivers are paying 100-200k per rebuild as in f1).?

According to F1-sales.com a cosworth hb 3.5 or a cosworth zetec goes for 60.000 pounds. Unfortunately nothing on rebuild intervals and costs.

Any insiders with some info?

[Steve Wilkinson]

A lot depends on who does the rebuild!

Some companies insist on access to the engine management system so that they can monitor any misuse and advise on when a rebuild is required.

A 3.5 Judd V8 or Cosworth DFR V8 costs somewhere in the region of £3,000.00 for a rebuild assuming no major problems.

I would have thought the HB would be nearer £6,000.

[Roninho]

Thanks steve.

But how about the rebuild interval? £6,000 per 200 km or per 2000 km makes a lot of difference, so any clue on that?

And you got an idea about what kind of performance these engines have? Are they detuned, and if so by how much?

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Roninho

Thanks steve.

But how about the rebuild interval? £6,000 per 200 km or per 2000 km makes a lot of difference, so any clue on that?

And you got an idea about what kind of performance these engines have? Are they detuned, and if so by how much?

My information comes from the Hillclimb/Sprint Scene in Britain. The power out of the Judds and DFRs is round the 500 to 600 bhp level. Most drivers work on a time basis between rebuilds but do have precautionary inspections at the end of each season. A full rebuild would be done at least every two seasons.

The newer engines don't put out that much more power but are considerably lighter.

[simon drabble]

that sounds a lot more reasonable than I imagined a twin cam needs a 3k rebuild every 15/20 hours depending what revs you hold on it

[aiwa]

Having seen various invoices I would suggest that 12 to 14 K per thousand miles as long as the engine is in one piece and is rebuilt on a regular basis.

[Roninho]

Thnx for the info

I stumbled across this link on the internet, very interesting

Especially this part:

The CK engine is a 3 litre V10. Max revs 17,800. Max power 840 bhp. Weight 92.5kg. Lifetime 700 km, more at reduced rpm. .... Approximate cost of rebuild per engine £10k.

So 10k per 700km. Quite costly.
But how 'bout reliability? Don't these engines blow up every once in a while?

Due to the nature of these engines, we will offer complete track/build support.

I guess this is necessary for pc-management-stuff. Sounds costly.

[josvandeperre]

The Williams auction next month has a couple of ex-F1 Judds with very low estimates

http://www.bonhams.com/cgi-bin/publi...&iSaleNo=13928

[Charles Warner]

I can confirm the Judd CV available at 570 horsepower for 25,000 - 30,000 pounds. (Anyone want one?) Takes a rebuild every two years or about 1500 miles/20 hours, depending on leakdown and compression checks done after every event, with borescope inspections also done. Rebuild costs will be closer to 8,000 - 10,000 pounds, depending on the builder's preferences. New/Fresh DFV will cost about 60,000 pounds with same rebuild and inspection criteria.

[driftwood]

iM AMAZED AT THE ILL INFORMED WHO POST FIGURES FOR REBUILDS
4 CYL BDG BMW HART F2 TYPE MOTORS COST £5-10K FOR FULL REBUILDS SO ANY F1 V8 WILL BE BETWEEN HALFASMUCH AGAIN TO DOUBLE AS U HAVE TWICE AS MANY PISTONS VALVES LABOUR COSTS FOR STARTERS
THE F1 ENGINE VARY IN ENGINE MILES BETWEEN REBUILDS DUE TO THE HIGHER REVS THAT THE POST 1990 ENGINES RUN TO
MORE REVS MORE WEAR N TEAR LESS MILES
DFV AND JUDD VARIANTS RUN TO 11500 RPM AND YOU CAN GET 650-1000 MILES FROM THEM IF THE REVS ARE KEPT BETWEEN 10-11000RPM
JUDD V10 ENGINES REV TO 12000 RPM BUT THE 4 LITRE ENGINE IS USE DIN MANY F1 BOSS CARS REVS TO 10K AND CAN DO 2000KM
THE LATER COSSY ENGINES HB ED ASIA TECHS HART V8 V10 ETC ARE CHEAP TO BUY TODAY COMPARED TO THE COST OF MAKING THEM
THE PACE OF F1 IS SO FAST THE MOTORS ARE OBSOLETE AFTER A FEW YEARS THEY CURRENT MOTRS REV OVER 17000 RPM BUT THE REBUILDS ARE FREQUENT AND THE COST DOESNT DROP JUST BECAUSE THE ENGINE IS NOW "CHEAP" TO BUY

THE WILLIAMS BONHAM AUCTION HAS SILLY GUIDE PRICES TO GET PEOPLE TO THE ROOM SO DONT BE FOOLED

[Roninho]

Driftwood --> What is the impact on the HP of the judd if it is run @10.000 rpm instead of 12.000?

And any idea what's different between the Judd F1 engine and the Le Mans Judd GV engine? Difference in technology, hp, rpms, etc?

[driftwood]

gv10 3.5 litre engine is bored to 4 litre
looks same on outside inside there are many mods
running lower revs will loose u power
but u weigh up power v $$ in the more frequent rebuilds
becomes an easy choice when u have a low budget!!

[jamesl]

The Le Mans L1 cams are a good compromise. Less revs does mean less power, but you do gain more torque and an easier engine to drive. The lower revs also help with costs if on a budget.

[driftwood]

L1 cams are ford parts!!
any engine that runs in and endurance event will have different internals to compensate the lower revs required to gain longevity
horse for courses sprint race high revs more power les smiles between rebuilds
endurance races more miles between rebuilds means lower rpm
some times it can be mapped to run at lower revs but its not that effiicient for the best power torque figures hence engine components need revising