MSNZ & TMC - 'Wheels start to come off'

[NZSTfan]

Originally Posted by raymond

Some of us a still working hard to get the sanctioning of V8ST done before the first round.

Thats good to hear Raymond I appreciate you being upfront about this. I get the impression you are stuck between a rock and a hard place.

It would still be nice to think that there is a sliver of a chance that the ST's will be on the undercard for the supercars. I know its a championship round for the NZV8's, but MSNZ did put the idea forward and it seems it was accepted by V8SC, then the pin got pulled.

Otherwise, as i have stated before, come April, it will be embarrasing to watch 4, maybe 5 TLX cars and a gaggle of TL's running around Pukekohe. It will give the impression that NZ motorsport is not progressing further, yet there are the ST's that are doing wonderful things both in NZ and overseas (by that i mean that many thousands of people have watched the races overseas, and that the endurance rounds attracted plenty of overseas talent).

I believe that at our biggest motorsport event (NZ round of the supercars), NZ needs to be putting its best foot forward, not the one with the in-grown toe nail

[Icarus_nz]

Originally Posted by Woolley

I've spent a lot of time around the fringes of this, watching people talking to themselves under different names (yes, I know who most of you are or are closely aligned with) and I've come up with a theory.

You guys deserve each other. Frankly, drop the motorsports and just do this as reality TV.

Ewwwwwww you naughty tease.
Giz a hint mr!

[nistfan]

Originally Posted by raymond

KRDG

There is no "seething mass of corruption" at MSNZ.

The HD unit was bought with TMC company funds and when the sport questioned this, it was sold within a year? .
I was never invitied to go to this unit, there was no secret gentlemens club or drinksfest for the boys as you suggest.
MSNZ has had hospitality suites at some of the V8SC rounds in the past as part of the agreement between V8SC and MSNZ and these were used for sponsors of the sport and other facets of the sport we represent such as VCC, Drag Racing, Kartsport and the like.

There is a big mess to fix, not all of MSNZ's doing, so I have mentioned the above so we are dealing in fact, not fantasy.
For me/us to get things back on track and to see an end to all this crap is a huge job, not helped by comments that are ill informed. Shayne and Shaun listed some good points, which can be used as a basis for moving forward.

I will no doubt be censured severly for this post, but the mention of the word corruption just brings in a whole new level when it is not correct, has no factual basis and is just a personal dig at MSNZ.

By the way; enjoying the weekend at the Lake, but water too warm and the fish are hiding.

Thanks for the post Raymond.

Any reason you kept away from Manfeild this weekend? I hear a very poor turn out from Spectators, maybe 1000 to 2000.

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by Sommersby

Hear hear

Yep time to pull your bloody fingers out and sort this once and for all. Absolutely dreadful some of the stuff I have heard today - utterly inexcusable.

[socram]

Originally Posted by nistfan

Any reason you kept away from Manfeild this weekend? I hear a very poor turn out from Spectators, maybe 1000 to 2000.

Oh surprise surprise!!! Maybe Raymond enjoyed his long day at HD so much that he can't bear to get back to being associated with lesser meetings... Far better to go fishing.

The point from MSNZ about dumping classes and upsetting sponsors is highly hypocritical, as they and other "high profile" groups, are always happy to grab previously locked in dates from the "lesser level" clubs, who have their own sponsors and series and committed dates from 100's of drivers.

We are grateful for the ongoing support from Auckland Engineering Supplies and Arrow Wheels for our race series', but over the years, we have had several dates bumped so we obvoiously don't count, nor do OUR sponsors.

The Sanctioned Series issue is an odd one. We opted out of having our series sanctioned because when we read the fine print, it merely meant handing over part of the control to MSNZ, ensuring all road cars had full roll cages and the payment of higher race meeting levies at each and every round.

I am happy to be corrected here as I am going on old knowledge or even hearsay, but only Sanctioned Series are allowed at Tier One events. So the question is - why? Why would you hand over any control at all to Wellington? We resolve our own issues, enforce our own rules, so that the MSNZ meeting stewards are only involved in maintaining on track standards and safety issues and ensuring the meeting as a whole runs to the book. They are not able to interfere in any way shape or form as to the series rules or their application.

Just for the record, I totally support Sean & Shane (Drake) and would take their word on any issues against most others. As a former business partner of Shane's for ten years in Chicane, I'd to also like to place it on record, that in that ten years, over and above everything else, I admired his honesty, and if that outspokenness ruffles a few feathers, so be it.

It's a pity that those with their ears to the ground are ignored all too often.

Ray - not Crunch...

[Club racer]

Originally Posted by nistfan

Thanks for the post Raymond.

Any reason you kept away from Manfeild this weekend? I hear a very poor turn out from Spectators, maybe 1000 to 2000.

Raymond - you have to accept that to 95% of the sport involved outside of MSNZ - it now looks alot like Martin Fine is calling the shots.


You keep telling us that MSNZ is working hard to sanction V8ST, but that it is not that simple. And that there is a big mess to fix first.

That big mess I suggest is a set of accounts which makes very dim reading indeed and if they come under close scrutiny by a FULLY INDEPENDENT FORENIC ACCOUNTANT, would point some fingers.

Tell me, if a private entity or the stakeholders in the sport - ie the license payers - agreed to fund an independent audit ofnthe books so it cost MSNZ nothing - would they go for it?

If the answer is no the reason is obvious.

[Swedish Brick]

Originally Posted by Sommersby

So lets move away from ST, and focus on a class that only gives to motorsport in NZ: Formula 5000.

f5000 were invited to be part the Pukekohe supports ( despite not meeting MSNZ criteria on having appeared at the V8SC round previously) but the group voted 29-2 against taking part.

This must leave a gap?

I have all the releases backing up what has been said. This is only an issue because MSNZ said they would recommend the ST being at the race.

V8SC were okay with it, until MSNZ changed their minds.

In the meantime I know that one top kiwi driver ( as it would happen an ST driver) almost had to pull out of the 12hr this weekend....because his licence renewal sent in over 2 months ago had been seemingly 'forgotten' by MSNZ.

Nuts and bolts?

Can you share those releases? All I have done is ask for the info where MSNZ said what some are saying they said, and put forward a THEORY based on the offical things i have seen, not heard.
If a release can be posted saying "xxxx" it would be kind of conclusive wouldn't it.
Some on here jump to too many conclusions I thnk

[Swedish Brick]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

aww, come on MR Woolley. are you implying their are schizophrenic (SP) posters on here, arguing inside their split level heads ??

name and shame time

Never would have suspected such a thing! First forum I've ever seen that allows people to have multiple logins active at the same time

[CDM]

Originally Posted by socram

The Sanctioned Series issue is an odd one. We opted out of having our series sanctioned because when we read the fine print, it merely meant handing over part of the control to MSNZ, ensuring all road cars had full roll cages and the payment of higher race meeting levies at each and every round.

I am also puzzled at the need for V8ST's to become sanctioned...

I am involved with a MSNZ Sanctioned Series and there is absolutely no requirement to hand over any control to MSNZ (lets be honest if there was then V8ST wouldnt be pushing to become sanctioned) and our series would drop our sanctioning also. I am also confident in saying our series would be just as successful regardless if we were sanctioned or not, and we do it to have the back-up of MSNZ should anything happen.

A sanctioned series has rules that are approved by (in our case written in conjunction with) MSNZ and then you have the MSNZ manual etc to back up your rules/appoint penalties etc etc. I also dont believe there are dearer levies for a sanctioned series, but I also am not involved in where the entry fees go, once we pay them to the track...

But yes I am intrigued as to why V8ST's seem (according to the posters on here) to be determined on becoming sanctioned...

[socram]

Originally Posted by CDM

A sanctioned series has rules that are approved by (in our case written in conjunction with) MSNZ and then you have the MSNZ manual etc to back up your rules/appoint penalties etc etc. I also dont believe there are dearer levies for a sanctioned series, but I also am not involved in where the entry fees go, once we pay them to the track...

As I said, I may be a bit out of date, but second point first. The entry fees generally don't go to the track. The permit holder/organising club/promoter hires the track, collects the entry fees and pays the bills.

We got caught out a few years ago when we invited a race group that just happened to be a sanctioned series. When the bill for the MSNZ levies came in, I believe we had to pay an extra $25 per driver for that group - quite a painful hit at the time. (Levy fees are probably in the current manual, but mine isn't to hand.) My memory may be playing tricks as I binned the paperwork for that meeting, but I am pretty sure.

When it comes to applying penalties etc, we have our rules, (which were also written in conjuction with MSNZ) and within those articles, the penalties, points scoring etc., are clearly defined, hence there is no need for MSNZ who I would respectfully suggest, are (or were) generally far too distant to really understand the underlying philosophy of our series, nor would we expect them to be immediately conversant with all series rules.

However, in recent times, MSNZ Stewards we have dealt with locally have gradually respected the series ethos to such an extent, that rather than jump on any offending driver for a minor misdemeanor, they have quietly approached the series convenor for a word, who then deals with the offending driver. For that we are grateful and that breeds mutual respect.

We need some mutual respect at the moment, but as anyone who has ever been in uniform or any disciplined service will tell you, the rank or position alone does not command respect, it has to be earned. Take note.

[Southern Man]

Originally Posted by socram

However, in recent times, MSNZ Stewards we have dealt with locally have gradually respected the series ethos to such an extent, that rather than jump on any offending driver for a minor misdemeanor, they have quietly approached the series convenor for a word, who then deals with the offending driver. For that we are grateful and that breeds mutual respect.

The quiet chat behind the bike sheds with the offender as you describe them maybe acceptable when one is competing in anything other than a structured championship however one needs to remember that the so called offender often ruins the race for the innocent ones and can gain an advantage over them by their actions and that this is not acceptable.

At the lower level meetings like clubmans and classic (eg Non Championship) there are a number of drivers whom I believe have more than earnt a trip to the Clerk of Course office for a formal hearing regarding their actions rather than the "Quiet chat" as they are repeat offenders who continue doing the same things every meeting.

From my experience the issue/s that leads to the chat behind the bike shed have never been investigated, rather the chat is about the result of the incident and not the cause.

[Goat Boy]

Shane Drake for MSNZ President!

And when is Brian Budd going to resign?

[socram]

But if the series convenor's don't reel the offenders in, then it goes higher.

I would like to think that all the drivers I do speak to react accordingly. If they don't, they are suspended. Repeat offence from then on - banned. Not rocket science. Drivers know they can also voice their concerns to convenors. I was merely pointing out that our MSNZ stewards have developed sufficient knowledge and trust to know that we take that "chat behind the bike shed" very seriously and act accordingly, ditto any chat from the CoC.

If you have several drivers who have earned a trip to the CoC and nothing has been done, then you have to take a look at the structure under which you run and all the personnel involved.

Our series ARE structured championships... I have the final say in our own series as to the allocation of points or penalties over and above any CoC rulings. For example, when the flag falls in a handicap race 1 lap early, (it happens more often than you realise...) the race results have to be recalculated, regardless of the CoC signing off the printed results. If it were left to MSNZ to administer, do you really think anyone is going to sit down and recalculate the resuts with an extra lap? Of course not and nor should they, but I have to.

[Goat Boy]

From Sunday's Herald:

Motorsport: V8s heading for 'Dark Age'By Paul Lewis
5:30 AM Sunday Feb 10, 2013

New Zealand's Greg Murphy gets ready to hit the track. Photo / Wayne Drought As more court action looms between warring V8 factions, motor racing great Greg Murphy has delivered a stream of fiery criticism of governing body Motor Sport New Zealand. Murphy says MSNZ is trying to destroy V8 racing in this country and that drivers, teams and fans will walk away if the sport returns "to the Dark Ages".

Murphy is an investor and a driver in the V8 SuperTourers organisation which has grown quickly to become the premier V8/touring car series after breaking away from the old MSNZ-run NZ V8 Championships. But the battle for control continues - with more court action possible even after the last legal stoush was ended and the two V8 competitions seemed to be, if not merging, at least cooperating.

Murphy was angry after MSNZ blocked a move by V8 Super Tourers to race on the card of the V8 SuperCars next epic at Pukekohe in April. In addition, other V8 SuperTourer sources say court action is an option after they claimed MSNZ re-neged after seeming to agree on a joint V8s meeting in Taupo next month. The Taupo meeting was said to have been a double-headed, joint effort showing V8 fans a common, united front instead of holding separate meetings on the same day at Taupo and Ruapuna.

But MSNZ made no decision on Taupo, letting three weeks slip by until V8 SuperTourers had no option but to honour their commitment to racing at Ruapuna. They then maintain MSNZ declined to sanction the V8ST card at the Ruapuna meeting - meaning the MSNZ-sanctioned V8s event at Taupo on March 9 and 10 would be the only V8 racing in the country on those days.

The Taupo-Ruapuna stand-off has sparked talk of a court injunction (one V8 SuperTourers spokesman called it a "restraint of trade" unlikely to withstand legal scrutiny) while the V8 Supercars issue has set Murphy off.

"It is a pathetic, mind-blowing thing," Murphy said. "It is all about control and I have even had comments relayed to me that certain people in MSNZ have said they are out to destroy V8 SuperTourers.

"They are a governing body. They should be concerned only with governance and helping our sport to grow. Instead, they are all mixed up in the commercial pursuit of promoting a V8s championship for their own reasons - and doing whatever they can to hurt us. It is very disturbing."

The SuperTourers championship, which starts next weekend at Hampton Downs, has 21 cars and has attracted well-known drivers like Murphy and Shane van Gisbergen, as well as Craig Baird, Andy Booth, Angus Fogg, John McIntyre, Steven Richards and Jonny Reid - many of whom have moved over from the old NZV8 championship. MSNZ had set their sights on a championship involving the so-called 'Car Of Tomorrow', the TLX cars, of which only three have been built and are ready to race.

"It's pathetic," said Murphy. "Three cars? V8 SuperTourers have the cars, the drivers, the teams, the TV rights, the fans and all the interest. Surely any governing body would be happy with that and would be seeking to have the sport grow and flourish. But I believe this comes down to power and the fact that certain people in MSNZ don't like certain other people personally.

"It's all about power and control and the fact that certain people can't do what certain people used to be able to do - and they are trying to correct that. V8 SuperTourers have invested $7 million or $8 million into motorsport. MSNZ, in their infinite wisdom, have completely and utterly ignored that investment by all those teams as if it hasn't happened - because it doesn't suit them.

"It's incredibly disturbing and a lot of people within the sport are shaking their heads in disbelief. It's clearly about self-preservation by people who have been involved in the sport for too long and have too much self-interest.

"What they don't understand is that there are a whole lot of competitors, teams and fans who want this [V8 SuperTourers] to happen and that if they [MSNZ] go down this path, the ridiculous thing is that V8 SuperTourers will shut their doors. All those people would walk away."

Murphy said the sport had not grown and flourished because of the previous regime of control. Now, when there was a chance to do so, MSNZ seemed to be trying to retain control at the sport's expense.

"I hope they don't think we are just doing this for our own ends. It's about growing the sport and making it healthy and no one I know wants to go back to the Dark Ages.

"I am not saying this to be a stirrer - I am an investor and someone who gives a **** about the sport. I love the sport, it's been my career and I want to see it benefit and grow. While MSNZ is pulling this stuff, it won't happen. I am speaking out because I want what is a bloody good thing prevented from becoming a disaster."

MSNZ president Shayne Harris said yesterday he did not know of any reasons why the V8 SuperTourers could not race at Ruapuna.

Regarding the V8 Supercars support races, he said: "We are taking those matters to a meeting of the executive next weekend. As far as I am aware, we are doing all the things we said we'd do; I'm not sure why they are getting upset. The calendar was set for the V8 Supercars meeting last May and, to accommodate the V8 SuperTourers, we'd have to move someone else out. We are not sure that's fair."

[Southern Man]

[QUOTE=socram;3202543
Our series ARE structured championships... I have the final say in our own series as to the allocation of points or penalties over and above any CoC rulings. For example, when the flag falls in a handicap race 1 lap early, (it happens more often than you realise...) the race results have to be recalculated, regardless of the CoC signing off the printed results. If it were left to MSNZ to administer, do you really think anyone is going to sit down and recalculate the resuts with an extra lap? Of course not and nor should they, but I have to.[/QUOTE]

Are you saying that if the flag falls on lap 5 of a race sceduled for 6 laps then you adjust the finishing order to what you think the result would have been if they had continued racing for 6 laps

Or are you saying that you recalculate what the handicaps would have been if it was planned as a 5 lap race and then reallocate the finishing order on an elapsed race time basis

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by Goat Boy

Regarding the V8 Supercars support races, he said: "We are taking those matters to a meeting of the executive next weekend. As far as I am aware, we are doing all the things we said we'd do; I'm not sure why they are getting upset. The calendar was set for the V8 Supercars meeting last May and, to accommodate the V8 SuperTourers, we'd have to move someone else out. We are not sure that's fair."

Mr Harris is on record as saying "It has been decided that at this late stage in the process MSNZ was not prepared to include it (V8ST) ahead of support categories that have previously supported the V8 Supercar event."

F5000 were invited as a support class when, to the best of my knowledge, they have never been a previous support class to V8SC. They declined the invitation so wouldn't one assume there would be room for another class; gee now, can I think of one?

[Icarus_nz]

DOes anyone have a link to the piece on the CRC Speedshow yesterday?
(Also how far into the link the piece is) I'd like to hear for myself what was said

I got home from performing domestic duties in time to to endure the shouting from the speedway commentary - very offputting.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

DOes anyone have a link to the piece on the CRC Speedshow yesterday?
(Also how far into the link the piece is) I'd like to hear for myself what was said

I got home from performing domestic duties in time to to endure the shouting from the speedway commentary - very offputting.

It was fairly early on in the piece, it was quite brief but didn't pull any punches either.

Sorry I don't have a link, Shaun or Nigel should be able to help?

[mountainstar]

Again, why do the dance with MSNZ? It just gives them status and a sense of importance by doing so.

Let them do whatever it is they do or want to do and move on with your life. V8ST or any other series doesn't need them to function.

I saw all this already with CART in the USA and the indy racin league splitting off. The two parties spent so much time engrossed in their own little world most of the public could care less about and spent their time bopping each other over the head, trying to one up one another. By the time it was all over, everything had evaporated and open wheel formula racing no longer exists in the USA as a viable, professional, profitable championship.

Reading a lot of this and Murphy's comments leads me to believe the people on the inside are having a hard time seeing the woods from the trees.

[Goat Boy]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Again, why do the dance with MSNZ? It just gives them status and a sense of importance by doing so.

Let them do whatever it is they do or want to do and move on with your life. V8ST or any other series doesn't need them to function.

I saw all this already with CART in the USA and the indy racin league splitting off. The two parties spent so much time engrossed in their own little world most of the public could care less about and spent their time bopping each other over the head, trying to one up one another. By the time it was all over, everything had evaporated and open wheel formula racing no longer exists in the USA as a viable, professional, profitable championship.

Reading a lot of this and Murphy's comments leads me to believe the people on the inside are having a hard time seeing the woods from the trees.

I think the problem is that MSNZ issue the racing licences and the permits to hold events. I don't know what would happen if you wanted to hold an event at a circuit for example, and they didn't grant the permit, not sure what the implications of that would be?

[socram]

Originally Posted by Southern Man

Are you saying that if the flag falls on lap 5 of a race scheduled for 6 laps then you adjust the finishing order to what you think the result would have been if they had continued racing for 6 laps

Yes! The handicap would have been calculated for six laps, on the asumption that every car reaches the finish line at exactly the same time. I would add another lap at the driver's best lap time for that race and recalculate. Equally, if there has been a safety car intervention, I have been known to spend a lot of time substituting affected laps for race laps. Time consuming and sometimes difficult, but I take the handicap results seriously, as all our points races are handicaps.

[socram]

Originally Posted by Icarus_nz

I got home from performing domestic duties in time to to endure the shouting from the speedway commentary - very offputting.

I put it on mute. Gives you a screaming headache otherwise. Terrible commentating - and it has been raised on here before. I'd rather listen to Jamie McCarthy and Phil Dark doing the boats - and I am not at all interested in the boats.

[NZSTfan]

yep agree with you on that socram. I'm not really into the boats either (although those hydroplane things look mental!), but the commentary was good.

I always switch off when the speedway stuff starts. Although i am still keen to head along to one of those meetings one day. The crowds seem quite big, so it must be a good night out

[raymond]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I saw all this already with CART in the USA and the indy racin league splitting off. The two parties spent so much time engrossed in their own little world most of the public could care less about and spent their time bopping each other over the head, trying to one up one another. By the time it was all over, everything had evaporated and open wheel formula racing no longer exists in the USA as a viable, professional, profitable championship.

...well that's a positive outcome??

[on_to_it]

Originally Posted by NZSTfan

yep agree with you on that socram. I'm not really into the boats either (although those hydroplane things look mental!), but the commentary was good.

I always switch off when the speedway stuff starts. Although i am still keen to head along to one of those meetings one day. The crowds seem quite big, so it must be a good night out

It usually is a good night and you don't have to listen to that [edit]autocensor is there for a reason[/edit] who does the TV commentary. I imagine he sounds a bit like Peter Montcommentary calling a yacht race might, after sucking all the helium out of a balloon.