[Official] Brazilian Grand Prix: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 20 of 21

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

It certainly is, but not in this situation. Once again I refer to both the stewards and Charlie Whiting's comments, none of which you've addressed so far.

I have no reason to address their comments, as I do not disagree with them. Ocon was [majority] responsible for causing an avoidable collision, and was issued with a penalty as a result. That is on record, and not disputed.

What I am addressing is the continued assertion that Verstappen (or anyone) could not have possibly seen a risk and mitigated the situation. Risk Assessment requires the possibility of events to be calculated. Seasoned drivers implement this as part of their racecraft, and take mitigating measures if appropriate. Verstappen did not carry out any [mental] Risk Assessment before choosing to defend.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

What I am addressing is the continued assertion that Verstappen (or anyone) could not have possibly seen a risk and mitigated the situation.

Whiting addresses this too. Maybe you missed that.

Does the same go for Hamilton?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Whiting addresses this too. Maybe you missed that.

Does the same go for Hamilton?

no because as explained, in your example from Silverstone, Hamilton mitigated that risk by leaving a cars width for Kimi, but kimi understeered into Hamilton after locking up on cold tyres. an entirely different situation to Verstappen closing the door on a car alongside of him going into the corner

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by bella

out of the two of them, ocon is the one who will mature. like hamilton did. i’m afraid from everything we’ve seen, verstappen never will. i really want him to come good, but i can’t see it happening this far into his f1 career.

Oh my lord... Yes, that is why one is lead driver at a top team and another has no drive for next year.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Oh my lord... Yes, that is why one is lead driver at a top team and another has no drive for next year.

Ocon doesn't have a drive next year because Mercedes wont release him, and the only seat available in a Mercedes engine team went to the Boss's son.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Whiting addresses this too. Maybe you missed that.

I did - can you please provide the comment from Whiting where he says that it was impossible to foresee the risk?

I note the words:
'Of course you would expect it to be done safely. But more to the point it should be done cleanly and absolutely without fighting. He shouldn’t be fighting to get past.'

Whiting says that Ocon should be passing cleanly, but doesn't say that it could not be foreseen as risky. There is a difference between expectation and observation.

You would expect there to not be cone in front of a weighbridge if you are called onto it - but sometimes the reality is different to expectation!

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I note the words:
'Of course you would expect it to be done safely. But more to the point it should be done cleanly and absolutely without fighting. He shouldn’t be fighting to get past.'

Whiting says that Ocon should be passing cleanly, but doesn't say that it could not be foreseen as risky. There is a difference between expectation and observation.

Once again, this is where the main difference lies. Verstappen acted according to expectation, as anyone should and would have. 'absolutely without fighting'. Your observation is telling Verstappen he should have acted differently after he's already been spun out.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Indeed they're not, and neither are the denizens of this board. In this case, the stewards and Mr. Whiting have by far the most convincing case.

True, the denizens on the board aren't either. However, that doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong and the stewards and Mr. Whiting are necessarily right.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

True, the denizens on the board aren't either. However, that doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong and the stewards and Mr. Whiting are necessarily right.

Yes... thanks once again for this ancient pearl of wisdom. I'm sure the strawman enjoyed it.

Mr Whiting and the stewards have the best case supported by the strongest arguments. Most of the people on this board do not.

[ascarracinguk]

Look, sprinkles is never going to accept anyone else’s point of view so shall we just end this thread here? It is funny how he keeps jumping to Charlie Whiting and yet disagrees when he doesn’t punish Lewis or punishes Vettel!

At the end of the day Max got spun out which is karma for all the times he’s hit others this season, vettel was useless and Hamilton won which is great coz it pi$$es off a certain user

[Greem]

It's been bubbling for a while, but I'm strongly reminded of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lvcnx6-0GhA

[EffectiveSprinkles]

An argument! On a forum! Quick, somebody telegram the wire service!

[ascarracinguk]

I am starting to wonder whether Sprinkles is actually Max. About as stubborn, unapologetic and incapable of seeing another point of view

At least his partner will be happy that he came second again

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Once again, this is where the main difference lies. Verstappen acted according to expectation, as anyone should and would have. 'absolutely without fighting'. Your observation is telling Verstappen he should have acted differently after he's already been spun out .

My observation is that Verstappen shouldn't naively drive based on expectation, but to drive based on observable developments.

The expectation was a dry race - if drivers can see rain developing should they ignore it?

[S griffin]

Of course people are going to point to the fact Ocon is a Merc junior driver, but don’t you think he made it look a bit obvious if that what was being suggested?

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by GingerPixel

Ocon probably should have backed out a bit when trying to unlap the leader.

Verstappen probably should have presumed that Ocon's car hadn't magically vanished when he turned in.

Everyone blames everyone. Max seems like a bit of a bellend.

A perfect summation of 20-odd pages. /applause

I’d add that Christian Horner’s remarks were disgraceful. And he isn’t doing Verstappen any favours by indulging his petulant, entitled behaviour.

[Adam43]

What quite suprises me is that the general consensus is that it was Ocon’s fault!

It is the point about (in the moment, not with hindsight), that for his own safety Verstappen should have been more circumspect when turning in.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Adam43

What quite suprises me is that the general consensus is that it was Ocon’s fault!

It is the point about (in the moment, not with hindsight), that for his own safety Verstappen should have been more circumspect when turning in.

Look, man, he's not Mystic Meg.

[chillibowl]

the enduring thought i am most left with is that i want to see these two battling against each other in top level cars over the next 10 years!

Ocon needs a seat for next year!

[bella]

agreed, chilli!

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Look, sprinkles is never going to accept anyone else’s point of view so shall we just end this thread here? It is funny how he keeps jumping to Charlie Whiting and yet disagrees when he doesn’t punish Lewis or punishes Vettel!

At the end of the day Max got spun out which is karma for all the times he’s hit others this season, vettel was useless and Hamilton won which is great coz it pi$$es off a certain user

the funny thing is, i'm pretty sure any of us arguing against him do respect max's talent, understand that ocon was a bit of a wally but the need to actually try and create a *discussion* not just an angry exchange of viewpoints is too much to resist i give up now though. life's too short to get angry at people on the internet.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by bella

life's too short to get angry at people on the internet.

Mine certainly is.....

[Akrapovic]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPMYro8Z2FQ

"My initial reaction is that its Ocons fault, but thinking about it more, Max tends to take these risks when it's not necessary."

Scott Mansell saying exactly what the rest of us are saying. It's no use being right when you're backwards.

[GT6]

Well it added a bit of excitement but To be honest Ocon was mostly at fault but if Max wants to win a championship he will need to be aware that not every other driver is scared of him and his reputation, and as he matures into a possible fute champion he will have to learn more than just racing, tactical awareness has won many more championships than blind instinct. However the fia needed to come down hard on his antics after the race that was not acceptable, IMHO

[Armco Bender]

Stayed tuned for the Abu Dhabi Royal Rumble.
Main event Mad Max "The Baby Faced Assassin" Verstappen vs Esteban "The Rock" Ocon.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Yes... thanks once again for this ancient pearl of wisdom. I'm sure the strawman enjoyed it.

You're welcome but I'm not too sure about the straw man. I haven't seen him post anything on this thread, so far.

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Mr Whiting and the stewards have the best case supported by the strongest arguments. Most of the people on this board do not.

That's your opinion, which you are entitled to. Others, including myself, disagree.