Chevrolet leaves WTCC after 2012 season

[codename_47]

I've never been too crazy about manufacturers in the sport and indeed had a bit of a "debate" with Ben Consty on Twitter about their worth to a series.
He argued because of "professional" manufacturers like Chevrolet elevated the WTCC above the BTCC and its independent drivers.

Well, look where manufacturers leave you, they turn up, usually wanting to suck the competition out of the sport, dominate, and the first sign of things not going their way (or they've won everything that is to be won at a canter...) they disappear.
They're racing for their own agendas and not the good of the sport.

Next year might be a breath of fresh air as you have proper racing teams (yes "independants"!) who don't get bullied off the road by the three Chevys (the driving standards this year by those 3 have been far from "professional" in race 2 when having to fight through the field!) so the quality of the racing might well improve.

If I had it my way manufacturers would be limited to supplying engines and providing the chassis to independents and that's it.
They would be fine to invite their corporate guests to sit in the paddock but they're not welcome to run the team, sitting on pit wall and demanding their cars don't race each other so Muller can stroll to another championship, no thank you!

I also don't understand what the Aon Fords get out of being in the series either.
Last year they had it pretty sweet, running near the front of the BTCC, great TV exposure, racing in the same country as the factory and they move to the WTCC, why?
Running around the back of a "world" championship is somehow better than at the front of the BTCC?
On a TV channel that must get 10% of the viewing figures of ITV4?
That is, when they make the TV as they must've had about 30 seconds of exposure through the season so far....if I was a sponsor of theirs I wouldn't be too happy!

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Like Superstars you mean?

A fully endorsed and properly regulated version of that wouldn't be a bad thing but not just restricted to premium makes?

I was looking at some Superstars coverage the other night and thinking along similar lines. They've got something with that series... it's not 100% right but it's in the right direction. I agree about premium marques but whatever's raced needs to be fast in road trim too. So yes things like Evos, Imprezzas, VXRs etc should be in there too.

An interesting idea, no ?

[Matt]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I agree that the best way forward would be production based racing. However we need to think about what should be raced. In days gone by it used to be the sportiest version of the average family saloon. However families don't use saloons any more, they use people carriers. I don't think any of us want to watch people carriers racing, do we ? Therefore I propose it be fast sports saloons, say with a minimum production BHP of 300 and that would include M3s, AMG Mercs, Jags, Ford Focus RS, Audi RS4 etc... In terms of equivalencing, make it simple - power/weight ratio. If we want to make it even more exciting have them run on road tyres.

are you kidding me? minivan racing would be amazing.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I was looking at some Superstars coverage the other night and thinking along similar lines. They've got something with that series... it's not 100% right but it's in the right direction. I agree about premium marques but whatever's raced needs to be fast in road trim too. So yes things like Evos, Imprezzas, VXRs etc should be in there too.

An interesting idea, no ?

I don't think the hardware needs to be that outlandish either. Most makes or sub brands of groups have several models that would be ideal cars to run in such series. I think there might still be a place for small cars too but not for just those types of cars as we've mistakenly had the last few years.

There's a US series that is similar?

[nicanary]

Class division by engine size worked fine "back in the day". It encourages a diverse entry , and allows the less wealthy to take part.

I don't see why it should just be for the "premium" brands - why not anything that is homologated as a production car (say 1000 units). Just like the old Group 1 . Bring on the Moskvitch!

[Speed-King]

There's a US series that is similar?

Yeah, Conti Challenge. Great Series, though the fields tend to get too big every couple of years and then they tend to have a season full of crappy races full of FCYs. Unfortunately things seem to have reached this point again this year.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by nicanary

Class division by engine size worked fine "back in the day". It encourages a diverse entry , and allows the less wealthy to take part.

I don't see why it should just be for the "premium" brands - why not anything that is homologated as a production car (say 1000 units). Just like the old Group 1 . Bring on the Moskvitch!

It shouldn't just be for premium brands, that's what I was saying, but it should be for fast cars. Rather than engine size, BHP would be better. That way you wouldn't have to worry about turbo equivalences etc...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I don't think the hardware needs to be that outlandish either. Most makes or sub brands of groups have several models that would be ideal cars to run in such series. I think there might still be a place for small cars too but not for just those types of cars as we've mistakenly had the last few years.

No problem about smaller cars. If a power/weight ratio formula was used for equivalence, then maybe we could have some interesting see-sawing like the famous Iberia Trophy at Crystal Palace 40 years ago. Wouldn't it be great to see something like an Astra VXR, Renaultsport or a Ford Focus RS battling head to head with big bruisers such as M3s, AMG Mercs, Jags... all with proper racing drivers fighting for a worthy world title.

A bit more exciting that the arrival of Lada to the 'WTCC' don't you think Mr. Lotti ?

[I Rosputnik]

Originally Posted by davyboy

No problem about smaller cars. If a power/weight ratio formula was used for equivalence, then maybe we could have some interesting see-sawing like the famous Iberia Trophy at Crystal Palace 40 years ago. Wouldn't it be great to see something like an Astra VXR, Renaultsport or a Ford Focus RS battling head to head with big bruisers such as M3s, AMG Mercs, Jags... all with proper racing drivers fighting for a worthy world title.

A bit more exciting that the arrival of Lada to the 'WTCC' don't you think Mr. Lotti ?

This is the footage? I don't think I've seen a Mk1 Escort nip at a Camaro's heels like that.

I don't see anything wrong with Lada entering the WTCC, never harmed the WRC when Lancia entered and won it several times.

Anyway I thought you all might to have a look at the Megane R26.R. To be honest that's all a touring car needs to be. A stripped back version of the road car that you can hammer around the track, and it only costs £24,040.

Plus there is the US Touring Car Championship which deals with Sport Compacts. Compared to Europe, it's very grassroots based, but can stay on it's own two feet.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by I Rosputnik

This is the footage? I don't think I've seen a Mk1 Escort nip at a Camaro's heels like that.

I don't see anything wrong with Lada entering the WTCC, never harmed the WRC when Lancia entered and won it several times.

Anyway I thought you all might to have a look at the Megane R26.R. To be honest that's all a touring car needs to be. A stripped back version of the road car that you can hammer around the track, and it only costs £24,040.

Plus there is the US Touring Car Championship which deals with Sport Compacts. Compared to Europe, it's very grassroots based, but can stay on it's own two feet.

Ya that's the race... one of the best ever.

The thing I have a problem with in terms of Lada is that they're fielding something that isn't what it is if you know what I mean. The road version of that car is arguably one of the worst things money can buy... it's not quick, sporty or otherwise. The Integrale was, and still is, a legend on road and on rally.

Yep, the Renaultsport Megane R26 is the kind of thing I had in mind.

[nicanary]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Ya that's the race... one of the best ever.

The thing I have a problem with in terms of Lada is that they're fielding something that isn't what it is if you know what I mean. The road version of that car is arguably one of the worst things money can buy... it's not quick, sporty or otherwise. The Integrale was, and still is, a legend on road and on rally.

Yep, the Renaultsport Megane R26 is the kind of thing I had in mind.

Spot-on about the Lada. And the Cruze was no great shakes as a road car. I'd much prefer to see racing where the spectator could see which car really was better than its contemporaries.

(By the Law of Clarkson. the Megane would only do two or three laps before the dashboard fell off).

[I Rosputnik]

I never meant to say any ill towards the Delta (it's one of my favourite cars of the era), but I know that Lancia left the UK down to rust/quality issues from some of their other models. (However they are making a comeback via the Fiat/Chrysler merger)

As for Lada, I see where you are coming from. I remember seeing the list of changes they had to make from the road going Granta to get it to the right specs. It's a shame because I like the look of the car in race trim (even if the road car is rubbish) and I've supported the team since they had their first attempts at the series a few years ago.

I'm more curious if Nissan (rumoured) or Renault (unlikely) decide to enter and what happens to the team considering that the Renault-Nissan Alliance has shares in Lada.

To be honest I don't understand why Chevrolet never made an SS version of the Cruze to go along with the race model.

(God help us if Clarkson ran a touring car championship... It would be fun!)

[NaBUru38]

I loved the concept of Alfa Romeo, BMW, Honda and Seat running C and D-segment cars around the world. But that's not very realistic now.

Luxury manufacturers will prefer DTM, Superstars or GT racing, where there are luxury cars already and viewers have higher income.

Mainstream manufacturers will prefer rallying, where they run B-segment hatchbacks. Plus rallying is very popular in Southern Europe.

In the case of the United States, that's Global Rallycross. Like, if Chevrolet wants to promote their smaller cars, they will run a couple of Sonics there, not Cruzes in a road course - they have Camaros and Corvettes for that.

Or mainstream manufacturers can run in national touring car championships, which have decent national coverage. Like, WTCC in Brazil and Argentina won't work because there's Stock Car, TC2000 and many other national championships.

FIA should accept that there's DTM and Superstars doing what the WTCC can't really do: attract major fields.

[helgi]

Well, why Europeans can not make their own TC2000? It's obvious that you will never equalize stock cars and there would always be some unhappy manufacturers because their cars are designed simply to carry your grandpa safely from a shop to your house. Just put some areas where you can make the car more sporty - suspension. And leave the main bodywork serial - just add some wide fenders. You'll never get a strong professional champ with stock cars.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

FIA should accept that there's DTM and Superstars doing what the WTCC can't really do: attract major fields.

In recent years often WTCC had bigger grids than Superstars and especially DTM.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by helgi

Well, why Europeans can not make their own TC2000? It's obvious that you will never equalize stock cars and there would always be some unhappy manufacturers because their cars are designed simply to carry your grandpa safely from a shop to your house. Just put some areas where you can make the car more sporty - suspension. And leave the main bodywork serial - just add some wide fenders. You'll never get a strong professional champ with stock cars.

Because of the little interest from manufacturers I am getting more and more convinced WTCC should go for something like the New Zealand V8 Supertourers and new V8 Supercars: Spec monocoque chassis with road car body panels (size 3-Series, Mondeo, Accord, etc.). powered (RWD) by a spec engine of around 420~450 bhp. After 3 or 4 years (when the series has a stable foundation) the spec engine could be replaced by engines supplied by manufacturers.

[Speed-King]

That's not WTCC-worthy, though.

If you went that way you'd probably lose the 'World" title. I am not even sure if the FIA would let a spec series like that stand as a European Championship, or if it would need to have a generic name like "Masters" or "Trophy", etc.

And if it isn't a world championship, what need is there for it? As one of many European series it'll have a hard time surviving. So really all Lotti can do is to stay the course and hope that it turns out alright before he has to fold, because I don't think he'll get a chance to rebuild once it has failed. There might be a new WTCC eventually, but we'd probably be looking at another 10 or 15 year interregnum.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

FIA should accept that there's DTM and Superstars doing what the WTCC can't really do: attract major fields.

The UK 2CV championship attracts a decent size grid but that doesn't mean the FIA should adopt those regulations.

How much of a profile does Superstars really have outside of Italy? With all the guest drivers being drafted in it's clear that someone is throwing significant amount of money at it, but you have to question just how sustainable it really is. The fact that some teams seem to run a different driver every weekend says to me things aren't quite as rosy as they seem.

DTM thrives purely because major manufacturers run an open wallet policy. There's no possibility of genuine customer of independent teams, so if and when one of the 3 makes decides in can no longer justify the expenditure then the series is at best badly wounded and at worst effectively over. Whilst they will never admit it in public I'm convinced there is an unofficial gentlemen's agreement between the organisers and team to performance balance the 3 different models. I don't see that working if more makes join in.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

That's not WTCC-worthy, though.

If you went that way you'd probably lose the 'World" title. I am not even sure if the FIA would let a spec series like that stand as a European Championship, or if it would need to have a generic name like "Masters" or "Trophy", etc.

Maybe true, although FIA has no problem with a 100% spec series like F2.

[FordCosworthPanoz]

I bet the 9 people and the dog that show up to Sonoma will enjoy the World Washing Machine Championship, but without Chevrolet will there be a 2013 WTCC round in the United States?

[helgi]

Originally Posted by redshoes

DTM thrives purely because major manufacturers run an open wallet policy. There's no possibility of genuine customer of independent teams, so if and when one of the 3 makes decides in can no longer justify the expenditure then the series is at best badly wounded and at worst effectively over. Whilst they will never admit it in public I'm convinced there is an unofficial gentlemen's agreement between the organisers and team to performance balance the 3 different models. I don't see that working if more makes join in.

Well, it seems like it overbalanced right now in favour of HWA. And Audi are too far behind.

As for TC2000 is it too expensive to built this type of cars by teams themselves without strong manufacturer's support (without strong manufacturer's influence on sport which is not a good thing with all that marketing stuff)?

[medius]

Originally Posted by redshoes

DTM thrives purely because major manufacturers run an open wallet policy. There's no possibility of genuine customer of independent teams, so if and when one of the 3 makes decides in can no longer justify the expenditure then the series is at best badly wounded and at worst effectively over. Whilst they will never admit it in public I'm convinced there is an unofficial gentlemen's agreement between the organisers and team to performance balance the 3 different models. I don't see that working if more makes join in.

I subscribe to that theory too, I don't think any manufacturer would go near DTM if they thought there was the possibility of another Opel Vectra situation, aka being crushed to dust by vastly better cars.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by FIRE

I am getting more and more convinced WTCC should go for something like the New Zealand V8 Supertourers and new V8 Supercars: Spec monocoque chassis with road car body panels (size 3-Series, Mondeo, Accord, etc.)

Mainstream manufacturers won't run their D-segment cars. They don't sell as much as their smaller models, which is the point of WTCC (León, Civic) and WRC (Fiesta, Polo, DS3).

TC2000 doesn't need rear-wheel drive to be succesful. They do rely on heavy manufacturer backing, but they enjoy major non-transport sponsor too. Like Stock Car Brazil, first you need decent television coverage. That's easier when manufacturers demand it, or when the championship is nationally focused.

[Pole2Win]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

TC2000 doesn't need rear-wheel drive to be succesful. They do rely on heavy manufacturer backing, but they enjoy major non-transport sponsor too. Like Stock Car Brazil, first you need decent television coverage. That's easier when manufacturers demand it, or when the championship is nationally focused.

I don't know how it is in Argentina but Stock Car Brasil doesn't have decent TV coverage. TV Globo (which owns the rights to it) won't show the races when they clash with F1 and there are a few races they don't show.

I think touring cars should work like GT3 cars, the manufacturers supply the cars and the privateers do the racing. But I agree that the series (WTCC) should have some more spectacular cars. Current touring cars are weaker than super touring era and much heavier. I don't know if Superstars is the right way to go, some of those cars are huge boats!

[ptclaus98]

The WTCC was the answer to a question no-one was asking, anyway. Touring cars are meant to be national at most. They shouldn't be more exotic than spaceframes, and the national attitude toward racing should dictate the direction of the series.

Leave the globetrotting to the sportscars and open-wheelers.