Group A or V8 Supercars? (Merged)

[Marcos WTF]

Originally Posted by DAVID PATERSON

I think Group A was under rated.

For the only time in it's history, the ATCC and Bathurst 1000 were run to the same rules as the ETCC, BTCC, JTCC , DTM etc. How awesome is that? The whole world singing from the same song sheet, local accents aside. The cars were closely related to what you see in the showrooms and you could compare one model with another. There were different classes, so little cars and big cars were all in together, mixing it up.

It wasn't perfect, the 500 sporting evolutions rule was a rather large loophole and they never figured out how to get parity between turbos and atmos, but i can't think of another flaw.

I'm astounded by the suggestion that they were slow. I recently accepted the role of custodian of Group A lap records for Australian tracks, so i am reallly keen to hear what is the best lap time on any Australian circuit of any keyboard hero in his street car. I will then produce the Group A lap records on that circuit, for comparison.

Closely related to what was in the showrooms? I must have missed the
showrooms & car yards fllled with sieras, LHD BMW's & Volvos and assorted other cars that were never sold here.

For my my money, Group C was more related to what was in the showrooms.

But as for Gp A being slow? No.

[Marcos WTF]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Group A was fantastic ! Not only could you enjoy battles for victory up and down the field... the cars themselves were interesting too as they were a genuine reflection of what was on the road. As a spectacle, it was incredible. I feel privileged to have seen so many of these races in the flesh. Is it better than the current spec. series ? I don't know... both have their merit... but was it crap, hell no way !

Genuine reflection of what was on the road? Not on the roads around my humble abode.Then or now.

I've seen more sierras in one Lakeside round of the ATCC than I've seen on the roads in my entire life.

Ditto the Volvo Turbo- the exact model eludes me.

[Marcos WTF]

Originally Posted by peckstar

That's 4. will you punch me in the nose?

FAS. The group A's were good, just like Space invaders was the best video game ever when it came out. I only think spade invaders is over rated when i compare it to todays games, but I had awesome times playing back in the 80's with all my mates, just like i had awesome times watching group A's

Probably though, I look back on Groups C's more fondly as they betetr repreesneted what i could saw on the road

Exactly.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Closely related to what was in the showrooms? I must have missed the
showrooms & car yards fllled with sieras, LHD BMW's & Volvos and assorted other cars that were never sold here.

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Genuine reflection of what was on the road? Not on the roads around my humble abode.Then or now.

I've seen more sierras in one Lakeside round of the ATCC than I've seen on the roads in my entire life.

Ditto the Volvo Turbo- the exact model eludes me.

Given that Australia had taken on an International set of regulations, you had to expect that cars not sold here would be used, especially if they were competitive propositions (as the likes of the Sierra's were)

[KA]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Genuine reflection of what was on the road? Not on the roads around my humble abode.Then or now.

I've seen more sierras in one Lakeside round of the ATCC than I've seen on the roads in my entire life.

Ditto the Volvo Turbo- the exact model eludes me.

That's the risk trhough with an international formula- and it might not have reflected what you saw on the roads in Aus, but it did reflect what we saw on the roads over here in Europe.

The real beauty of it though, was that Europe could meet Australia and Japan to a common rulebook (even if we did seem to interpret it a bit differently!).

Commodores might not have had much relevance to what we saw on European roads, but we were very glad to see Brock, Grice and Moffatt come over to Europe in 86/87, you got to see the top European teams at Bathurst, and I still remember watching Dick Johnson's Sierra showing a clean pair of heels to the best Europe could offer (until that water pump packed up...) at Silverstone in '88

Definitely good days...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by KA

That's the risk trhough with an international formula- and it might not have reflected what you saw on the roads in Aus, but it did reflect what we saw on the roads over here in Europe.

The real beauty of it though, was that Europe could meet Australia and Japan to a common rulebook (even if we did seem to interpret it a bit differently!).

Commodores might not have had much relevance to what we saw on European roads, but we were very glad to see Brock, Grice and Moffatt come over to Europe in 86/87, you got to see the top European teams at Bathurst, and I still remember watching Dick Johnson's Sierra showing a clean pair of heels to the best Europe could offer (until that water pump packed up...) at Silverstone in '88

Definitely good days...

KA is right. There were different cars marketed in different territories which is why the Sierras may have been slightly alien in Oz, the Commodores slightly alien in Europe, but the BMWs and Toyotas could be seen in Europe, Asia and the Americas. That was all down to the car companies' marketing. However what I meant in terms of road relevance was that for example a Ford Sierra Cosworth RS500 racing in Group A was using the same configuration as its road going counterpart, albeit modified. So it had the same shell and the same engine etc... It's one reason why performance [through the corners specifically] is poorer than today's V8s. Spectacular though they are, the present V8s bear little resemblance to what's on the road.

It was also the closest we ever got to a world saloon car championship.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by davyboy

KA is right. There were different cars marketed in different territories which is why the Sierras may have been slightly alien in Oz, the Commodores slightly alien in Europe, but the BMWs and Toyotas could be seen in Europe, Asia and the Americas. That was all down to the car companies' marketing. However what I meant in terms of road relevance was that for example a Ford Sierra Cosworth RS500 racing in Group A was using the same configuration as its road going counterpart, albeit modified. So it had the same shell and the same engine etc... It's one reason why performance [through the corners specifically] is poorer than today's V8s. Spectacular though they are, the present V8s bear little resemblance to what's on the road.

It was also the closest we ever got to a world saloon car championship.

see i think you raise there the argument for it being overrated. Australains generally have no desire to see little 4 cyclinders put putts run around. especially when we went from a time of big v8's (and then back to v8's). from that basis the series was overrated

It was great that we had world saloon car championship. But from a car point of view they were a bit underwhelming.

From a ford fan point of you, we had some moments in the sun, but the holden fans would just point out that we couldnt buy one and so we were back in our boxes

[Senna05]

What I loved about Group A (and now a lot of endurance races with GT style formats) is the class race within the race. And, the sheer skill it takes to work around some of the closing speeds.

Sure, gone are the days that a Mini could take the top 10 out, but it sure was interesting to see how people worked around the slower classes.

And, of course, around some of the more nimble circuits, who didn't enjoy seeing their favourite Holden or Ford or Nissan being swamped by a M-3? And who didn't enjoy seeing a Celica or Gemini sort of take on the faster cars (until the straights).

Horses for courses. I enjoyed it. And I enjoy a lot of motor sport.

But, to compare eras - you are playing a game that nobody wins.

[chavez]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Genuine reflection of what was on the road? Not on the roads around my humble abode.Then or now.

I've seen more sierras in one Lakeside round of the ATCC than I've seen on the roads in my entire life.

Ditto the Volvo Turbo- the exact model eludes me.

And I couldn't cross the road without being hit by a Turbo Bluebird, a twin cam Celica or Gemini, a 13B RX7

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by chavez

And I couldn't cross the road without being hit by a Turbo Bluebird, a twin cam Celica or Gemini, a 13B RX7

but they were gone by the end, irrelevant to the series, replaced by cars that we didnt see

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by peckstar

see i think you raise there the argument for it being overrated. Australains generally have no desire to see little 4 cyclinders put putts run around. especially when we went from a time of big v8's (and then back to v8's). from that basis the series was overrated

First time I have ever heard of a Sierra RS500 being referred to as a "put putt".

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by bluesport

First time I have ever heard of a Sierra RS500 being referred to as a "put putt".

i get that, was just being condescending, but we didnt really want 4cyl even in turbo format. if we did wouldnt the 2 litre series have took off. But it didnt

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by peckstar

see i think you raise there the argument for it being overrated. Australains generally have no desire to see little 4 cyclinders put putts run around. especially when we went from a time of big v8's (and then back to v8's). from that basis the series was overrated

Not sure which Australians you're talking about here... certainly not the ones who buy cars as we can see from this.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Not sure which Australians you're talking about here... certainly not the ones who buy cars as we can see from this.

i get that , but its 2013 now, not 1990 when group A was around

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by bluesport

First time I have ever heard of a Sierra RS500 being referred to as a "put putt".

Those particular "put-putts" were actually faster than the Commodore V8s of the time down the straight at Bathurst

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Those particular "put-putts" were actually faster than the Commodore V8s of the time down the straight at Bathurst

We know that, but you miss the point, in Australia we didnt want to see cylinder turbos. We wanted v8's.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by peckstar

i get that , but its 2013 now, not 1990 when group A was around

But even back then, Aussie legends like Peter Brock and Dick Johnson chose put-puts over V8s... so much so that Brock even 'switched sides', the Ford was just that good. Dick Johnson took development of the RS500 to such a level that he wiped the floor with the Ford European works teams when he came to Silverstone back in the day. It was among Australian saloon car racing's finest hours and something Aussie saloon car fans ought to be really proud of.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by davyboy

But even back then, Aussie legends like Peter Brock and Dick Johnson chose put-puts over V8s... so much so that Brock even 'switched sides', the Ford was just that good. Dick Johnson took development of the RS500 to such a level that he wiped the floor with the Ford European works teams when he came to Silverstone back in the day. It was among Australian saloon car racing's finest hours and something Aussie saloon car fans ought to be really proud of.

What choice did they have. Ford didnt have a competitive v8. Brock had been dumped from Holden. they just chose the best of a bad lot.

[formerf1champ]

How has this thread allowed to go on for so long???

FAS33's next thread "Were turbo F1 cars overrated?". Reading the thread over, and reminding myself of some of my opinons about GpA on other threads, there really should've been some kind of homologation when the ATCC had GpA rules. Ford or an independent team should've developed a GpA Falcon (if they really wanted to compete in a Ford)

Originally Posted by RedZedMikey

. Bernd Schneider is 48

This is actually the most extraordinary post in the thread. It reminds me of reading a Schneider interview in Autosport. He was asked about what his plans were for his career and how long would he like to race for, particularly since Klaus Ludwig was his team mate, who was then roughly 48. He said he wasn't interested in doing what Klause was doing.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

How has this thread allowed to go on for so long???

Agreed.

[padba05]

BTCC in its hey day was fantastic but very expensive I think

[racer69]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

Ford or an independent team should've developed a GpA Falcon (if they really wanted to compete in a Ford)

Dick Johnson twice investigated a 6 cylinder turbo version of the Falcon (for Group C and Group A), Ford were not interested though so it didn't get very far.

There were no V8 Falcon's by the time Group A started in Australia, so a car of that makeup would have been ineligible. The Anderson's got local homologation in NZ for a V8 XE Falcon that ran in Group A over there, but it was ineligible for FISA homologation.

[Henry]

What the OT poster is ignoring, from the safety of Generation Me, is that the tyre technology, the downforce, the sophisticated engine management, the 8-hours-per-day training regime, the secret blend muesli - none of that existed in the time of Group A.

I could wax lyrical about the risk of having your car get air at the second hump on the old Conrod Straight, or the frustrating of trying to put a DJR Sierra's power to the road through 10 inch rears when the thing came onto boost, but like Woolley said; get on youtube and watch Tom Walkinshaw's 1985 pole lap at Bathurst, watch Brock set out to hunt Goss down that year, watch Dick Johnson's Mustang bucking and twitching at Lakeside's Hungry Corner (although you'll probably be telling us that Lakeside's not a proper track because it only took a minute to get around it), watch Grice take on Europe in 1986... watch John Bowe and Tony Longhurst slapping at each other at Winton... watch Francevic, Richards, Brock and Johnson beating each other up at Calder... watch Graeme Crosby in his ATCC rookie season... watch Alan Jones flinging an Alfa GTV around like he stole it...

In those days, the commentators didn't need to feebly attempt to beat up the interest levels by turning pit strategy into some sort of master chess game; the racing was REAL racing, on track, for position, corner to corner...

It did get boring once the manufacturers got into building bigger and better mousetraps, and dominating season to season, but those cars were always as quick as you'd like.

Like the Facebook memes say these days: if you're carrying an iPhone, you've got a device with many, many more times the electronic sophistication of the devices that took man to the moon, that you can use to instantaneously access virtually everything everybody in the history of the world has ever known... and Generation Me use it to take duckface pictures to send to their boyfriends...

*shakes head* no appreciation of anything, these whippersnappers...

As far as Falcon homologation goes, turbocharging the 4.1 would've put it in amongst the heavyweights - and weight penalties were the reason that Holden reduced their V8's capacity from 308 to 304 cubic inches... the initial 1.4 turbo equivalency (multiply the capacity by the factor to determine which weight class the car fell into) would've had the Falcons weight far too much... and of course, once Ford of Europe made the Sierra RS500's the weapon of choice, the fudge factor went up further...

[Woolley]

Describing Grp A as '4-cylinder put-puts' is a little disingenuous to the Rover V8, in terms of longevity, variety of installations and numbers produced arguably the best V8 ever built. Sounded good too.

Wasn't the M3 a straight 6? Although that car, along with the Cosworth really are what ruined the class and resulted in it's eventually demise.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Wasn't the M3 a straight 6? Although that car, along with the Cosworth really are what ruined the class and resulted in it's eventually demise.

It was an inline 4 but not any normal inline 4, it was a variant of of BMW's all conquering M12 Formula 2 engine. The first generation M3 was a truly awesome piece of kit.