V8 Supercars Safety Review (merged) [twice]

[Chatters]

After the tragic death of Mark Porter, the calls have been made for a serious review of safety in V8 Supercars (surprise surprise). People have been calling for all sorts of different solutions, but the one that surprised me the most was Craig Lowndes' call for the driver to sit in the middle of the car. To be honest it surprises me that someone as experienced as Lowndes who knows the dangers of the sport is calling for such an... Irrational change. To move the drivers to the centre of the car mean you have to re-align the gearbox, change the dashboard and the telemetry, and makes it harder for driver changes and a whole lot of other things.

So, do you think V8 Supercars need a safety review, or are you, like myself, willing to accept Porter's passing as an accident, understand that's the danger of motorsport and move on?

[Nado]

I don't think that's irrational. Obviously there'll need to be a lot of R&D and therefore can't be introduced until at least 2008, but with all that done, there's no reason why it couldn't be done and I don't think it'll reduce the excitement of a V8 race at all.

[Henry]

Lowndesy might be well-off to consider a switch to the Aussie Racers then.

I think we're due for a change of formula... knock 150bhp or so out of 'em, and a bit of grip, a heap of aero. Leave them with just enough downforce to negate the natural lift generated by the production car's shape, and take two inches out of the rim width. If they haven't got the grip they enjoy now, it might teach them a bit of respect for racing room, and since the difference between grip levels on- and off-line is reduce, open up more passing opportunity.

Slowing them down might also let some of the lesser talents and guys of limited experience get on top of the car, instead of being taken for a ride by their machine... a contibuting factor in many of the incidents seen last weekend.

It seems strange that for all the perceived advances in safety, for all the talk that it's a much more sophisticated sport than the old days etc, the Series Proddies - the bludgeon-like GTHO Falcons and their ilk - did little more than frighten their pilots: while there were still big crashes, injuries and miraculous escapes all round, I don't think it was any worse than the week we've just witnessed here .

I think it's more that in an age of SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY, of the party line of the "greatest touring car show on earth" and the rest of the palaver, we've become complacent, we've lost site of the fact that motor racing is inherently dangerous and should be partipated in with a healthy respect for that fact. I've heard a similar argument applied to F1 now and then, saying that many of the modern superstars wouldn't have survived long enough to take their first win in the times of the Fangios etc. And I reckon they're right.

If you ever get the chance to look over a pristine and original muscle car like a Phase 3, check out what they had - rear drums, Armstrong steering, the aerodynamics of a packing crate, 14 x 6.5 rims and then the tyres... oh dear... oh, and the shedload of power that the whopping big lump of pig iron upfront shovelled out.

And they put them on The Mount, with 50-odd other loonies, driving anything down to Datto 1200's, and flogged them around for 500 miles. And possibly had no more serious accidents than we saw in the last weekend.

There's no point in having a formula that produced 2:08-capable cars, if there's nowhere big enough to handle them. And neutering tracks with concrete and sandtraps isn't an answer... they've already outgrown Winton, Lakeside, Mallala, probably Calder, and there were murmurs following Oran Park too... what's left? Street Circuits? How long before Surfers maims someone? Betcha Brighty thought his number was up there in 2004 or whenever it was tha Rick coathangered him... and what happens if someon breaks a steering rack at Adelaide's T8, and turns hard left, head-on into the outside wall?

Slow them down. It didn't hurt the spectacle in 1985, when we swapped Group C for A, or in 1993 when the Group A's made way for the 5-litre touring cars, as they were back then. WHo knows - we may actually see some racing, rather than the contrived trash we're enduring these days. Hinestly, the 1000 was more like Australian Idol - Skaife got voted out first, then Bright, then...well you get the picture.

[Senna05]

While I do think it's overkill, we've had two tragic deaths in 30 days that could possibly have been avoided with central driving positions....

But for that to be effective, it'd need to be instituted in ALL CAMS/Australian classes... is that logisticaly possible for GTP/GT/Aussie Racers/Saloon Cars/Historics/etc?

I saw on sunday NASCAR use an alloy/alluminium seat, to avoid driver injury from shatering carbom fibre.... If anything, hat might be something to look at?

Of course, I'm not an engineer, and I am not at all aware of how Porter actually got injured. So, please, don't take my suggestion to heart.

[Senna05]

Henry, you might have a point!!

Make the Development seris EXACTLY how you have described, so the guys stepping up have more respect for the cars?

[Chatters]

If you look at moving the driving position to the center, what do you do for rallys, when there is a co-driver?

Perhaps a collapsable, strong, tough side board should be added to the race seat... Because if you look at them now, there is hardly any protection above the waist on their side. You couldn't have one on the left hand side, because obviously they need to change gears, but if you had something which locks into place while racing and unlocks and folds down or out for driver changes, that might provide more protection.

[Senna05]

Hmmm, once again, I am no engineer, but a sideboard, no matter the material, is not going to be as strong as the bars.

I've now read Craig's suggestion...

I guess in 1996 we pushed the driving position back. We don't have to have the driver dead centre, but more towards the centre in this class could be a wise move.

Perhaps also something with a little spring be placed on the drivers side? On highways they have started replacing armco with high tensile taught wire. Maybe they place this if possible between the intrusion bars, so it forces the immpacting cars outwards, combined with a more centralised driving position (2-3 inches MAY have been all the difference) with aluminium seats?

I don't have the answers, I will admit, but these small measures may save lives in the future. (Or at least asist in mitigating).

[FPV GTHO]

If they try and chase a solution, i think it will simply be more side impact protection. Looking at the cage structures during the driver changes, theres obviously alot going on there but from what i saw of Porters crash, there was still a fair amount of impact damage. Perhaps going to a door height side bar that would require window access in and out of the car might be a solution, with other solutions still allowing access in the event of an emergency.

I doubt they'd actually be able to drive in the centre. The engine is in the way of the steering, although i suppose they can link that around. The pedal positioning would be a ****fight and the drivers would probably feel more like theyre riding a horse than driving a car by straddling the gearbox.

[Erki]

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,...-23770,00.html
Here, he doesn't say that they should sit in the middle of the car, he just wants the seat to be moved more into the cente of the car.

I think he meant something like this:

There are couple of tens of centrimetres between the outside of the car and where the driver sits.

[Armco Bender]

Doesn't matter how strong you make the car,the human sitting in it can only take so much of an impact.
No amount of side intrusion bars will save you from a direct hit on the drivers side at high speed,us humans just don't bend that much without breaking.

[mmciau]

I'd suggest the human brain is not able to sustain the impacts "sideways" inside the skull, especially with a "side" hit.

The top side bar is very near the head and the body would 'stretch" within the harness and the helmet/head would probably contact this bar!

I think we need to wait for the results of the Inquest to reveal to us the extent of the brain trauma for not only Mr Porter but also Mr Brock.

Mike

[naughtymutt]

i think there needs to be a rethink on the rules... basically a v8supercar is based on a road car chassis... yes they make lots of changes to it but it is still not built to take 200kph hit...

After the sad events of the past weekend i think it now time to move to a more purpose build car... like the chassis they use in the DTM, which has a safety cell built into it...

[SRabbit]

Don't forget to there is more to Craig's comment than just concern for Porter's death.

Mark's unfortunate accident came at a time when Lowndes was still iffy about even being in a racecar after the death of some fellow he knew well, also from a side-impact......

[MRJUCY]

Safety can always be improved & should be constantly improved but slowing the cars down is not going to help anything.

The crash was said to be at around 180km/h which is fast but still nowhere near top speed of even a road going Falcodore, would anyone watch a racing car that couldn't do that kind of speed so what’s the point it could still happen.

A safety cell is something to be looked at it may not be the answer & couldn't be implemented overnight but I think it has enough merit to be further investigated.

[Sequel]

Didn't the Mitre 10 Falcon have a more central driving position, until the powers that be mandated against it? The VE$A rules now specify the position of the drivers seat so it cant be to far back of towards the centre line. But as has been mentioned, it normally isn't the physical impact of head/object, but more the acceleration/deceleration of head sideways.

We just need to encourage more open wheeler racing - carbon monocouque, central seating position, head protection, large FIA approved crush structures, bring on F3!

[bathurst77]

I Think they should have a 60kmh speed limit on corners, 100 on straights.
Double yellow lines down the middle of the track.
Police with radars scattered round the track.

For heavens sake:
"Motor racing is dangerous"
OK we have had a spate of tragedy in the last month, but how many deaths or serious injuries have their been over the last 30 years?
Compare that to the number of serious injuries from collapsed scrums or spear tackles in footy, or the number killed or injured driving to/from the track.

[PVDA]

I s'pose Friday's crash will now take the pressure of Tarmac Rallies which were the media target up until this happened

[KE30MAN]

I can't believe anyone would be against making the cars more safe.

Maybe you guys should talk to the family of someone hurt in motorsport?

As a competitor always put the cars safety at the top of the list.

[Denosaur]

I have to agree with an earlier post, that maybe making a move to a NASCAR type aluminimum seat might be a start. Watching that little segment at the start of the Friday telecast with Ambrose, and him saying that they have that type of seat due to the fact that drivers where being injured in the carbon seats, is something worthwhile looking into and using.

You could even see that the seat was a fair way in towards the centre, so there obviously ahead on that aspect of seat placement in the car. Thou the boys in VE$A have been attempting to do the same for the last ten years, it is obviously not enough for the speeds that they are doing these days. One of Crompton's little segement on the weekend about brake bias, showed in the Supercheap car that they have a reasonable gap between the seat and the door, because the team had the bias control mounted down there.

Lets not forget the speeds that the NASCAR boys and girls do, would be more useful for VE$A to follow there lead on some of the safety they have, rather than on how the teams should stand around there cars for the national anthem.

It would be a simple start to improving the safety.

[touring fan01]

The 2 litre super tourers, back in the 90's, had specially designed energy absorbing side protection structures and they also moved the driver to sit near the centre of the car...for the exact same reason, after a driver died in a similar same way.

Sure, some accidents are never going to be survivable, but this safety technology has been used for years overseas in touring car racing and I don't know why V8's haven't followed the lead and done it before.

[Chatters]

I think Lowdnes' call for a development of the Hans device is a must, but you have to protect the heads lateral movement without making it so the driver can't move his head. The safety cell I think is a really good idea, as long as it gets proper development and testing before implemented. V8 Supercars, which ever way you look at it, is always going to be dangerous, and the drviers know the risks when the hop in the car that they might not come back, but that's the way it is, simple as that. Take the good with the bad and move on.

[mountainstar]

I think they should look at adding crushable boxes in the door sill like in the DTM

[RotorFan]

Its surely not practical to have the driver in the centre of the car, as others have discussed. (Also the Larry Bar might be in the way of a drivers view if you move any more to the left - so that would need a rethink of the roll cage.)

Is there a possibility of reducing the power by 100 hp or so AND the minimum weight of the car?

1500 kgs of car has alot of momentum. Shave off some weight and you not only reduce the damage done in impact but make it easier to slow down faster to avoid an accident.

What does everyone think of that? Maintain power to weight but reduce the minimum weight.

[SRabbit]

I'm no engineering guru but to me, less weigth means less materials on the outer skin of the car? Everything else seems to be mandated and necessary ( so far as drivelines and suspension etc ) so the only way I could see it being done is lighter panels ( or very very expensive carbon fibre? )

I also find it interesting that Craig has spoken up about...well...anything - we don't normally hear from him about anything to do with anything - maybe he has decided that he needs to now step up in to the kings role to match the crown he now wears......

[Senna05]

A few years ago, I stumbled on a report that the HANS device (More related to open wheelers, particularly after Ralph had the massive accident in testing for Williams), while stopping neck injuries, has been found to increase concussions and had the risk of causing severe brain damage....

I guess this is 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

However, there is a larger risk of brain movement sideways in impacts. I don't know what the possible answer is, that would still allow a driver to get out quickly in an accident....

Last night I posted that these solutions might be too expensive for a base level operator - I now wish to retract that, as I know that if i was participating in club events, that I know my wife and kids (in the future) would prefer to have devon sambo's for a few weeks to pay for them than for my life to be in jeopardary....

VESA has a guy looking at cutting costs. I know propose they hire another guy, prossibly from the OHS side of things who follows the sport, to look at ALL OTHER CLASSES worldwide, and look at what NASCAR/DTM/WTCC/BTCC/GT use that could be applicable. They should attempt to do this before the VE/BE(whatever it is) hits the tracks.

This happened after Senna and Ratzenberg tragically passed away in 1994, and the worst we've seen in F1 is a broken leg (Schumacher, 99) and some sore backs (Villeneuve, R. Schumacher, Coulthard, Montoya, etc)