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30 Dec 2011, 19:23 (Ref:3005649)
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#26 | |||
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Racer
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 117
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Quote:
The cage in the Eggenberger car seems to have the same diagonal tube restricting the drivers access (in RHD form at least) as the Crosby car. http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...2/Egg-BMWb.jpg (Zoom in on the bottom photo) http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...2/Egg-BMWa.jpg Malcolm |
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30 Dec 2011, 20:24 (Ref:3005672)
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#27 | |||
 Race OfficialVeteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,734
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Quote:
That pic of the car in Crosby's hands is a real find by racer69! It is rhd, but I am positive that the spare CC ex Eggenberger car was a left hooker, originally it must've been as it was built in Germany as an ETC spec car for a European based team.... So if this is that car then it really does seem to suggest that it was converted to rhd by Clarke and Cook's concern or by Sytner as mentioned as a possibility elsewhere on the forum. (I can't think Sytner would have commisoned that sort of change as it would possibly limit it's interntional re-sale interest?) I'm sure i've got a pic in the Thruxton paddock of me standing next to the spare car in 1984 and i'm sure we've covered somewhere that this car was a left hooker, it may even have been mentioned in the 1984 Autosport Trimoco review? I am thinking it is more likely that this Crosby car is the other rhd CC race car that Newman didn't buy from Sytner? The 3 cars were given numbers CC29-31, although we may have found that one of them was given a new number after its rebuild? The other thing just to note is that Woodman crashed at Donington in practice for the first Trimoco round in his then new rhd car missing the next round at Silverstone and Weaver badly shunted his car in practice for the end of May Thruxton round, again this was his regular rhd car. As you said earlier KA, it doesn't seem as though the ex Eggenberger car was pressed into serivce though (it's one outing in their hands was the Donington 500 IIRC?) as both drivers sat out the respective races that they had their crashes prior to. Irionically the car was definitely at the meeting Weaver crashed at as that's the one where that picture of me next to it was taken at.... |
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__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?" "No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
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30 Dec 2011, 21:52 (Ref:3005705)
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#28 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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30 Dec 2011, 23:26 (Ref:3005722)
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#29 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 117
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Looking through Frank de Jong's website, it seems that one of the RHD CC cars that was raced does have a cage like Crosby's car.
http://homepage.mac.com/frank_de_jon...0Thruxton.html As does possibly the car that the South African's leased (refer KA's Post #24). Malcolm Last edited by MalcolmC; 30 Dec 2011 at 23:41. |
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31 Dec 2011, 00:20 (Ref:3005735)
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#30 | |
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Rookie
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 94
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So, let me clarify this in regard the ex-Synter CC cars.
Mike Newman acquired one in 1985 and continued to race it for several years and probably still owns it. Frank Synter took one to NZ in early 1985 where he shared it with new owner John Morton. Morton kept this car for a few years and shared it with Jim Richards in the 1986 series. It was then sold to John Sorensen and raced by him for a few more years. Charlie O'Brien acquired one car and brought it to Australia in time for the 1985 Bathurst 1000. He raced it for a few years and won the Pukekohe round of the 1986 Simpson series in this car. Finally, an ex-Synter car was leased to Graeme Crosby/Lew McKinnon. They raced in the 1985 B&H 6 hour race at Pukekohe and won the 1986 Nissan Mobil series. I'm assuming they leased it from Graeme Lorimer who took it back, painted it in silver DSIR colours and raced it in the 1986 Bathurst 1000 and the various NZ races during 1986/87. The car was then sold to Warren McKellar, painted yellow (just like the Eggenburger display car earlier in this thread) and was raced by him for a few more years. This is the car discribed in a number of articles as "Chassis RA001" and is referred to as the "first" Group A BMW 635CSI. So, we have four ex-Synter BMWs. Three were sold to NZ/Australia. All three had some level of success in NZ (Morton's car was 2nd in the 1985 Wellington Nissan Sport 500, Crosby won the 1986 Nissan Mobil series and O'Brien won the Pukekohe round of the 1986 Simpson series). The two NZ based ex-Synter cars are both still in NZ as far as we can tell. Have I got this summary right? |
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31 Dec 2011, 01:25 (Ref:3005747)
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#31 | |||
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Racer
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 117
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Quote:
I also haven't seen the Eggenberger car since 2000, so whether it's still in the country, I'm not sure. Other than that I fully agree with your summary. The LHD Sytner/Morton car isn't proving to be too much of a problem. It's the fact that three RHD ex-Sytner cars were racing in '85 (Newman, O'Brien & Crosby), when there was only two in '84, that's a little difficult to sort out. Malcolm Last edited by MalcolmC; 31 Dec 2011 at 01:41. |
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31 Dec 2011, 08:51 (Ref:3005780)
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#32 | ||
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Race Official Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,734
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That's true, although it does seem that we now know for sure that only one of the four cars was actually one of Frank's own cars, the other three being the CC cars he purchased to use himself before presumably changing his mind and selling them.
The most interesting aspects out of all of this is that spare car being converted and that all of the cars with the exception of the one sold onto Newman went to Australia or New Zealand and not Uk or Euro buyers. |
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__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?" "No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
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31 Dec 2011, 09:44 (Ref:3005791)
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#33 | |||
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Race Official Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,734
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Quote:
 Look what I found posted by your goodself: http://tentenths.com/forum/showpost....36&postcount=7 Brendon and Michael it might be worth you guys having a look through this thread for further useful info about cars that may have ended up in the Antipodoes etc? |
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__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?" "No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
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31 Dec 2011, 10:47 (Ref:3005806)
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#34 | |
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Rookie
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 94
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Interesting to note that you say chassis RA001 was sold to Crosby. A few other sources suggest it was leased to Crosby. As Malcolm says, we aren't sure who owned it when Crosby raced it. Possibly Graham Lorimer or even still owned by Frank Synter?
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31 Dec 2011, 12:51 (Ref:3005846)
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#35 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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Quote:
No idea who owned actually owned it if it was actually leased by Crosby- not least because IIRC it was originally suggested in the 635 thread (as mentioned in that chassis archive post linked to) that Sytner sold it to a Belgian team. If that bit is correct, then there's another step in the story- how it got from Belgium to NZ...it also suggests that the owner when Crosby leased it was either Australia or NZ-based, rather than still being Frank Sytner? Frank seems to have got out of the 635 game altogether by the end of 1985, he didn't appear again in the BTCC until 1987 with the first Prodrive M3, and his only 1986 touring car drives were at the two British ETC rounds, buying rides in an Italian 635 and a German 325i respectively. |
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1 Jan 2012, 07:36 (Ref:3006027)
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#36 | |||
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Racer
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 117
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Quote:
Looking through the '635 Thread' Posts #57, 188 & 192 all confirm what we've (re)discovered. There's a photo of the Eggenberger car in CC colours in Post #159. Something that doesn't tie up is that in Post #46 a letter from Frank Sytner stated that the Eggenberger car was sold to Jumet Motors to race in the 1985 Spa 24hr race. http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-28-018.jpg http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-07-28-019.jpg It seems surprising that one of these cars turned up at Pukekohe late in 1985 in Crosby's hands, back CC colours. Fast forward to Oct '88 and the race programme for the Nissan Mobil 500 in Wellington includes: "No.44, BMW 635CSi, Richard Gillies (NZ), Joe Sommariva (Aust.) ... Sommariva shared his BMW coupe with the owner of this car, Warren McKellar, at Sandown." So it looks like the old girl had one more race left in her... or not. From NZ Motoring News, Nov 4 1988, Pg 19. "Also non-started, victims of the FISA qualifying standards, were... the aging BMW 635CSi of Richard Gillies and Joe Sommariva". FYI the car qualified with a time of 1:39:82, compared to Dick Johnson's Pole time of 1:29:75. However the McIntyre/Hyde 635 (a very late entry of the Archibald's car) qualified with a 1:37:09, started, and finished 6th (only 17 laps behind the Ravaglia/Pirro M3). Fast forward to 2000 and the car is still wearing race No.44. http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/...2/Egg-BMWa.jpg I also found a mention that the Eggenberger car was used in some club racing by John Sax during 1986 while Graham Lorimer owned the car. Malcolm Last edited by MalcolmC; 1 Jan 2012 at 07:43. |
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1 Jan 2012, 08:43 (Ref:3006030)
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#37 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 383
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1 Jan 2012, 10:19 (Ref:3006044)
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#38 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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Quote:
Could the CC car have been sold to Jumet with the intention of racing it at Spa, but for some reason it wasn't used, and sold on by them to NZ shortly afterwards? The alternative theory is that maybe Frank simply got his cars crossed up when writing that letter some years after the event- possible I guess, bearing in mind that by 1985, he seems to have owned (albeit briefly in some cases) every single UK-based Group A 635 apart from the ex Stuck/Kennedy BS Automotive car.... |
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1 Jan 2012, 12:32 (Ref:3006075)
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#39 | |||
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Race Official Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,734
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Quote:
Yes, and by the looks of this it has already been converted to rhd. It has both Weaver and Woodman's names on the side so I am even more inclined to think that it was run in the Donington 500 where it very nearly won until getting overhauled by the Percy Jaguar in the closing stages..... |
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__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?" "No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
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1 Jan 2012, 14:11 (Ref:3006115)
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#40 | |
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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Weaver/Woodman at Donington
http://www.racingsportscars.com/etcc...-04-29-025.jpg http://www.flickr.com/photos/mendama...57625798580441 They also seem to have taken a second car to act as a spare? http://www.flickr.com/photos/estoril/2146115950/ Last edited by KA; 1 Jan 2012 at 14:17. |
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12 Jan 2012, 23:33 (Ref:3010962)
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#41 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10
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Nice to see there is some interest in the events of 1986! For the record:
The RHD 635CSi (001) was leased from Sytner via Aucklander John Morton. Morton actually drove a LHD 635 in the 1985 Wellington Street Race with Frank Sytner (whilst I drove a locally built VK Commodore). In fact, there is speculation to this day that Morton / Sytner actually won the 1985 race but were pushed back into 2nd due to lap scoring errors by the officials! But I digress... I actually leased the car and it came to NZ under bond. The car was raced in South Africa in 1985 / returned to the UK / was rebuilt by the late Ted Grace and sent to NZ for the 1986 races. It arrived in NZ in BMW UK livery. Morton actually put Crosby and I together - and after the 1986 Nissan Mobil Series (in yellow and blue colours), the car had to leave the country - only to return a year later in the hands of Graeme Lorimer (raced under DSIR colours). IIRC, Lorimer purchased it and later sold it to Warren McKellar. McKellar approached me and I actually helped with the set up of the car for subsequent racing. Unfortunately, McKellar had no racing licence / no motorsport experience at all and had to go to Australia to get a provisional licence by paying for a drive with Joe Sommariva in another LHD 635. For McKellar it was a baptism by fire and when he failed to qualify for the next Nissan Mobil in Wellington, I moved into commentary work with TVNZ and he put the car away. As part of the lease, Ted Grace came to NZ with the RHD car and was instrumental in preparation / running the car. For the 86 Nissan Mobil, Crosby and I shared pits / facilities / info etc with Morton and Jim Richards - Richards, of course, drove the JPS BMW 635 for many years at Bathurst etc and won on several occasions in a Holden with the late Peter Brock. The BMW's series success in the 86 series was due to all the stars being aligned in our favour - for sure. But the result still looks the same in the book. Apologies for the long winded post - but hopefully this will help join the dots.
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13 Jan 2012, 00:54 (Ref:3010980)
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#42 | |||
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Rookie
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10
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Quote:
In the photo, I'm on the wheel / Allan Prince is at the right rear / Graeme Paynter is by the left door / McKellar is left rear and one of the spanners is doing the work... |
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13 Jan 2012, 18:32 (Ref:3011312)
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#43 | ||
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Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5,402
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Quote:
Interesting that South Africa crops up in the story again- if 'your' car was raced in SA, I wonder if it was Tony Viana? a very wellknown South African BMW racer of the period, and one of the drivers who drove the second Sytner 635 at the 1985 Silverstone TT? http://www.flickr.com/photos/45161394@N05/ |
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13 Jan 2012, 21:06 (Ref:3011368)
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#44 | |||
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Race Official Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,734
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Quote:
If it did go to SA and Viana was the keeper/driver, it begs the questions as to what series it raced in as i'm pretty sure there wasn't a Group A series at the time, the national series being to a variation on the Group 1 regs? |
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__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?" "No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
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14 Jan 2012, 02:52 (Ref:3011466)
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#45 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10
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More Info on 001
I can't add any further info re South Africa - sorry.
 But some more points with this car: Because it was RHD, we couldn't run power steering as the PS unit couldn't fit in the engine bay with the particular extractors we ran. And because of our steering geometry, we had to turn the car in / turn it back out - at every corner - for 2 hours at a time! It was also the first car (in NZ anyway) where we could adjust the fuel injection from the driver seat. IIRC, 4.0 volts was the ideal setting when pulling out of slow corners and 8.0 volts at pace (circa 7200 rpm). If we started a race in sunny conditions and it became cloudy during the race, we could adjust the mix to maintain the optimum burn. Nowadays this is a normal reset from the steering wheel, but in 1986 it was quite radical! I see a suggestion in this forum that the engine / gearbox came from the written off Baigent car - not true. When Kent Baigent had his big shunt at Manfield, the 001 car has just arrived at the port of Auckland - complete with all spares. Happy to answer any queries - I'll pop back here from time to time.
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14 Jan 2012, 03:11 (Ref:3011471)
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#46 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10
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I mentioned earlier that there was a 'dispute' about the results in the 1985 Wellington Street Race. The official results were that the Mark Petch owned Volvo 240 (Robbie Francevic and Michel Delcourt) won from Sytner and John Morton. But Morton kept very good lap records and to this day maintains that he covered an extra lap (that would have given them first place).
I guess the true story was confirmed a year later, when the Producer / Director of TVNZ sport (Iain Eggleton) was a guest speaker at the Hutt Valley Car Club. Eggleton was directing / producing all motorsport for TVNZ at the time. This was the first ever event for Wellington. Key personnel were seconded from local car clubs and officials were from (mainly) the Manawatu Car Club at Manfeild race circuit (2 hrs away). Lap scoring was done by having one assigned person use a flip chart to turn over - each time 'their' car passed start / finish. Someone from TVNZ was assigned to check the positions of key cars by simply watching the flip charts (no electronic lap scoring until 1986). Somewhere along the line (due to pit stops), it became a mess and no-one actually knew who was leading. Or second. Or sixth. But the real hero of the day was certainly the Volvo - IIRC, it arrived in Auckland the night before practice and was air freighted in the belly of a Bristol Freighter overnight. It started from the rear of the grid and quickly went up through the field. But for TVNZ, they had live coverage going out and the poior commentators didn't have a clue who was where (and the end of the race was in sight). So Eggleton made the call - HE was the person who told his commentators that the Volvo waS LEADING AND |
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15 Jan 2012, 15:14 (Ref:3011898)
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#47 | |||
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Race Official Veteran
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 15,734
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Quote:
I would certainly think that the engine/gearbox situation is exactly as you suggest - Sytner would've purchased the 3 cars off of CC Motorsport (or BMW GB, whoever actually owned them?) as a complete package and to the best of my knoweldge 001 never got pranged whilst it was in the UK at least. Note: i've copied all the posts relating to this/these cars into the 635 thread. Last edited by chunterer; 15 Jan 2012 at 20:13. |
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__________________
"Double Kidney Guv'nah?" "No thanks George they're still wavin a white flag!"
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15 Jan 2012, 18:47 (Ref:3012003)
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#48 | ||
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Racer
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 383
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Quote:
nice to hear from someone directly involved back in the day Interesting what you say about the power steering not being able to be fitted due to the exhaust manifold, and the subsequent changes to the front geometry. I am guessing that the castor angle would have been dialled right back, to enable you to actually turn the steering wheel into corners. This also has the unwanted effect (among others) of having to straighten the wheel up once back on the straight. Certainly less than ideal, and must have made it a bit awful to drive! Some friends of mine own this car, and it will be on display at Hampton Downs next week, exactly as they purchased it back in 1989, complete with alloy cage, RHD etc. If I get a chance I will take some pics and put them up here. As you say, it did not "inherit" the engine and gearbox from the Baigent car, a friend of mine who was part owner/crewing on this car tells me the head was torn off the block, and the gearbox smashed. There was very little salvaged from this car, I think he got the steering wheel! Conrad Timms Last edited by brown dog; 15 Jan 2012 at 18:59. |
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15 Jan 2012, 19:12 (Ref:3012008)
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#49 | ||
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Rookie
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10
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Not sure what happened on comment #46 - but I suspect operator error! It disappeared before I could complete the edit....
Here is the full (edited) comment: I mentioned earlier about the Wellington Street Race result in 1985 and that John Morton and Frank Sytner felt that they were robbed of 1st place when the win was awarded to the Mark Petch owned Volvo 240 (Michel Delcourt / Robbie Francevic ) with Morton / Sytner ‘s BMW credited with 2nd. Subsequent events indicate that Morton and Sytner may have been right. This was the first ever event of this nature for Wellington. The track was along arterial streets of Wellington City and back via the wharves, so the circuit could only be completed on the Friday night, with practice scheduled for Saturday and racing on Sunday. But the circuit failed to pass the inspection – all to do with (the lack of) run off areas / positioning of armco / positioning of shipping containers as barriers etc. In the end, the race was run as a NZ National Invitation race rather than an FIA sanctioned race – and this posed major challenges for drivers holding FIA racing licences. Australian drivers were OK but for the likes of Walkinshaw, Percy, Delcourt, it meant a series of late night calls from NZ to Europe for approvals to be given that they could race at all! Officials for the event came (largely) from the Manawatu Car Club (Manfeild Circuit, some 3hrs north of Wellington) and marshals were largely volunteers from local Car Clubs. Electronic tags in cars didn’t happen until the 1986 races, so lap scoring was via a person assigned to each car, sitting in a trackside grandstand and turning over a small, numbered , flip chart each time ‘their’ car passed. TVNZ assigned a person to watch these scorers / these charts, to keep an eye on leaders / update the commentators. There were no official lap scorer(s). On the Saturday night (practice was over), the Mark Petch owned Volvo 240T (Francevic / Delcourt) was flown from Auckland to Wellington in a Bristol Freighter and (as it hadn’t practised) it had to start from the rear of the grid. But within a few laps, it was already working steadily through the field. Anyone watching the TV at the time would have noted that, toward the final stages of the race, the commentators had no idea who was leading. Or who was second. Or sixth. But the Volvo had become the darling of the event – carving its way through the field but having to make several stops because of a flapping bonnet (broken bonnet clip). But the lap scorers couldn’t keep up with the pit stops and several cars were ‘credited’ with incorrect completed laps. But it had become decision time for the TV team. Fast forward to the following year, and the TVNZ Director / Producer for Sport (Iain Eggleton) spoke of the 1985 event to members of the Hutt Valley Car Club near Wellington. He said that, with 90 minutes left of the race, he had no idea who was leading the race and no-one could tell him. So with the race building to a climax and no-one able to tell whether the BMW or the Volvo was leading, HE made the decision and told the commentators to call the Volvo as leading and for the BMW to be second. And that’s how the TV says it finished. The irony is that Eggleton could just as easily have said the BMW was in front and the Volvo in second. At the end of the race, Morton and Sytner produced full lap charts done by their team - complete with lap times / cumulative times / pit stops and showed that they had completed an extra lap compared to the laps credited to the ‘winning’ Volvo. But the officials decided that the results were to stand. It is clear that Morton and Sytner were stiffed by poor lap scoring, but the ‘win’ by the Volvo quickly evolved into folk lore – it was a story too good to change after the fact. I’ve also replayed the entire TV coverage but agree that it doesn’t provide sufficient proof one way or the other. But because of the lap scoring fiasco in 1985, electronic tags were used in each car from 1986. |
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12 Jun 2012, 16:52 (Ref:3089658)
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#50 | |
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Rookie
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1
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Hi Guys
Very interesting thread that I have stumbled on to here. There are some details listed that are incorrect, and I suspect that my memory will be available to fill in some other gaps. I need a few days to get the facts together and I will repost. Graham Lorimer |
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