[LM24] Le Mans 2004 entry list

[Aysedasi]

Or not? It actually gave those who don't go weak at the knees at the sight of an R8 a little chuckle........

[Tim Northcutt]

Let's Clarify Something Here:

1. Audi UK Does NOT have an automatic bid, according to the list posted above, and according to the ACO's list...which is the same as posted earlier here...unless they are masquerading as Team Goh or Team Joest....they simply are not listed......

2. Champion Audi won its class and the overal at Petit...the ACO site lists the four class winners at Petit as being among the automatic bids...their list is the only one that counts since they issue the bids and the invites....

Prior to this list being posted, the ACO was rather nebulus about who would get what from where as far as automatic bids were concerned...they spoke in general terms about 8 ALMS spots and four FIA-GT spots, provided they meet ACO regulations...and they also spoke about "up to 12 bids" from last Sunday's race, provided there were at least 9 entries per class....which didn't happen, so they adjusted downward....

A Point I Wish to Raise that Full Throotle Actually Brought to My Mind:

In his response to me, he mentioned that there was a feeling that the podium winners (or at least more cars) from Petit should have gotten automatic bids because it is an establshed race, whereas the LM 1000K was created as a one-time-only run....

That argument seems reasonable on it s face, but if that criteria would be used to determine automatic bids I would ask this question:

What about Sebring??????????

Sebring has been around nearly ten times longer than Petit (51 years) and has been one of the most prestigious events on the sportscar calendar for decades.....

In my book, the Sebring class winners deserve automatic bids before the Petit winners do....

And if I read the ACO's wordage correctly, they will extend "invites"...not "Invites plus automatic bids to the class winners" following Sebring 2004....and I would not assume that they will offer automatic bids to Sebring winners...because they already have 28 slots, and said in the text on their site that 22 invites would be extended as it stands now...

That could change when the "bids that may not be filled" by the Bentleys, etc., would become open, but I wouldn't assume anything...

Just thought I'd stir the hornet's nest a little with that one...

Your thoughts?

[full throttle]

Tim:

I agree totally with your Sebring suggestion. Much better measuring stick than a one-off race scheduled either intentionally or incompetently, to lockout ALMS competitors. Makes one wonder how much 'pull' Panoz really has with the ACO? Maybe this is why there are many rumours floating around about his 'tiring of the sport'.

[kdr]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
OK. So this is the official entry thread. Like RD, I'll be posting mine in due course, but, in November, I can't really be bothered just yet!

Just to let everyone know, however, like last year, I'll be asking Paul and Fab to be as strict as I'll be with entry posts - they should all go here - instead of starting new threads and leaving bits and pieces all over the place.......

as this has started in november thanks to the 1000k - this surely is going to be the biggest thread ever.

(except for that one about the bmw m3 touring cars of course.. )

[Pilgrimage]

This is going to be some build up!!!

[Tim Northcutt]

To Full Throttle:

We're of the same mind on nearly all of it....but I also have to keep in mind that in ALMS and in ACO texts I have read over the months, when invites are extended for Le Mans, that teams who compete regularly in ALMS events throughout the season are given "additional consideration" for invites....which tells me that the ACO does appreciate Mr. Panoz for stepping up and for his vision to put together what we now know as the ACO....

From everything I can see, the ACO and ALMS bond seems quite solid, and that the ACO agrees with what Mr. Panoz and Mr. Atherton are doing here in North America....

But that is just my opinion...

[Tim Northcutt]

Sorry about a mis-typed error in the last message...."what is now known as ALMS"....

But I do fell that Mr. Panoz does "carry weight" with the ACO, and that they realize what he has done for sportscar racing in recent years here in a vital market for the sport...North America...

[paul-collins]

kdr, with a little luck we'll get to talk about touring cars in this thread too!

[jhansen]

I wonder about Joest. They had an automatic entry for 2003 correct? Yet they did not compete. I havn't heard any news about their program for 2004. Please enlighten me if I missed it. However, assuming they attend, along with Champion and Team Goh, and if Audi UK get an invite, that's 4 privateer audis, which would make for a solid race for the top spot. Then throw in the rest of the solid privateer teams and the prototype class looks promising.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by paul-collins
kdr, with a little luck we'll get to talk about touring cars in this thread too!

Moderating positions can always be reviewed, you know.........

[paul-collins]

[Fab]

Originally posted by The Badger
Ok , I will give you that Ayse , but that still doesnt give it an automatic by . But Im sure they will be there . Lets hope they get that "Fuel Guage" sorted out come next year !!!

I'd like to have a place for a debate about "an entry or not for an Audi" ; I'm afraid there's not enough team having strong cars (I mean fast and reliable) to say to an Audi entry, "sorry, there's better than you".

They won't have an automatic enry, but if they want to enter, they'll have a place ; we can't say the same to Debora, Pilbeam, Durango, Taurus, etc...

[jhansen]

For me it is simple, obtain the strongest field possible. I do not know the ACO's requirements for invititations, but I hope it considers strength of field. As I said, four privateer Audis would put on a heck of a show. Throw in Pescarolo, RfH, Dyson, Intersport, etc. and you have a strong field. Variety is great, but if its watered down then its not so great IMO. One other point, if you are RfH or Pesarolo, and you win a race and an Audi isn't there, then you have not beaten the best. So Fab, I'd vote to allow the Audis in.

[Fab]

Agree with Tim and Full Throtle about Sebring, but ACO use it in a different way : it was, in 2003, a race to demonstrate the ability (for weakest teams) of running a long race and beeing at the checkered flag ; it was more important for WR, to mention one team, than to Audi Champion.

Bentley will leave two places for LMP/GTP900 it's good news for the weakest opponents, as we won't have an extended field before 2005 (55 cars).

We could have :
- four Audis (automatic entries or not)
- two Listers
- two Courages Evo (Pescarolo)
- One work Courage C60 (or a brand new Courage GTP)
- two Domes
- one or two customers with Panoz LMP 01 (?)
but the places will be harder to get for :
- one Lola Taurus
- one Durango
- one Norma
- one Panoz GTP (?)
- one customer Courage C65

... just to mention the LMP/GTP 900 LMP/GTP1 category...

[full throttle]

Tim: The teams I know would rather have something more solid to plan 2004 schedule on than "additional consideration". I mean its all well and good, but what does that really mean in the real world. I'd rather have something you can quantify like a points system based on participation, finishes, etc.... But this is a French show and that will not happen because thay simply don't think that way. Unless there is machiavellian politics and intrigue and back room meetings, they're not interested. Nobody's fault, just the way of life over there for centuries. Very frustrating for small teams trying to put together a budget and schedule for 2004.

[Fab]

Not quite right, even not far, Full Throttle : the point for ACO is t be FREE to invite the teams they chose. It's absolutely unfair said like this, but their purpose is to avoid pressure, like having on the grid a team who wants to make their own law in the system.

Yes, that's a french approach we name here 'local association' : ACO says 'love it or leave it', that how they kicked the butt of FIA last years.

And they never fired a car which deserve an entry ; when a car does'nt enter, we know after that was because of entry's directory problems (uncompleted, to late, etc...). I was angry against ACO for the Morgan in 2003, it happears that they didn't enter because they were not able to do so...

As strange as it could be, the french teams are much more angry about ACO than the foreign teams...

[paul-collins]

Originally posted by Aysedasi
Yep. While I'm prepared to argue the the Audi UK car is a great car (Jeez, what am I saying.....? ), I definitely agree that there is no reason whatsoever why that car should be guaranteed an entry.

You're all complaining at the prospect of having 4 Audi R8s in the field?

Did you complain back in 1985 when 956/962s made up 1/4 of the field?

[jhansen]

An excellent point!

[jhansen]

As an aside, and totally off topic, how many times do I have to post before I get rid of my rookie status? :confused:

[Fab]

Originally posted by jhansen
As an aside, and totally off topic, how many times do I have to post before I get rid of my rookie status? :confused:

One more and you're a racer !

[jhansen]

Woo hoo!

thanks Fab

[Fab]

Originally posted by paul-collins
You're all complaining at the prospect of having 4 Audi R8s in the field?

Did you complain back in 1985 when 956/962s made up 1/4 of the field?

Did I complain ? The more we'll have teams to win le Mans, the more we'll have a real battle, even if it's a battle between Audis. I'd prefer a dogfight with Audis, Domes and Courages, but if we have a real race in 2004, I won't complain : last four years, we knew the result before the race !

So roll on private Audis, as long as Joest won't come back... with an Audi I mean !

[Fab]

Originally posted by jhansen
Woo hoo!

thanks Fab

Huh, disconnect and come back, the racer statut should display...

[jhansen]

I disconnected and came back. Oh well.

[Mal]

To me the ACO have allowed more 'guaranteed entries' than ever before.
Also lets be real, the only reason the ACO got the strength of grid they got for a one off race in Novemebr was due to the offer of substantial automatic entries. Also the 1000K stated aim is as a curtain raiser for the LMES. I dont see to Panoz has anything to complain about really as he has got more support from the ACo than anyone over the last few years.
The change now is that the ACO has decided to launch its own european series and is quite rightly doing all it can to promote it.

The dream of course is that all these series become coordinated so that sportscar racing as a whole benefits globally.