Clios at Donington Last Sunday (26th)

[PaulSands]

What was with the melee following the deployment of the safety car all about?
To me the SC board and Yellow was clearly visible at the entrance to Goddards but everybody seemed to plough through regardless, a couple even attemtped overtaking moves, resulting in the inevitable once they exited and hit the straight...or in reality each other

[Chris Y]

I think it was largely precipitated by the man in 2nd place. Paul Rivett spotted the SC board from a long way off and slowed down into the chicane. We were standing at the chicane, and I saw the guy in 2nd place speed up dramatically through the chicane, and thought "he hasn't seen it".. Sure enough, he tried to pass on the straight, but by that time had realised the yellows were out, but had to slam on pretty hard as Rivett had slowed considerably. This resulted in a large stack-up behind, as almost everyone else steamed through the chicane and then had to brake sharply.

Typical Clio behaviour though

[PaulSands]

and didn't you just know what was going to happen

[Flagman]

Typical Clio behaviour though

No - typical Safety Car behaviour though....

Will get worse next season when everyone can use the safety car instead of the B/Y flag - different SC car drivers at each round/circuit - sounds like they should rename it the Chaos Car.

Keeps the spares departments in work I guess.

[PaulSands]

So in this instance what was it..safety car going too slow?
Who normally drives the safety car? are they usually ex-racers or current racers?

[Flagman]

Safety car was at the Redgate end of the straight when the cars came out of Goddards!

According to Blue Book the safety cars driver has to have a current licence equal to the grade of the race.

Probably put this one down to a mix of drivers who had been used to the safety car and some who had never been involved with one before.

Even when all the drivers are experienced with the safety car they still seem incapable of avoiding running into each other.

[PaulSands]

Maybe upon the introduction of the safety car the yellows should be waved and doubled too? I cant remember if they were waved or stationery to be honest

[Flagman]

Wouldn't ot be better if the drivers just obeyed the yellow flags in the first place - reducing the need for the SC car - if the Legends can do it then so can the rest...

[bella]

i'm sure we've all seen the formula renault lot behave like total hooligans upon sight of the safety car this year.

mind you, it's a considerable improvement on the last few years when they put out the safety car too late on numerous occasions at brands hatch...

[Muppet]

The Clio carnage wasn't due to the safety car because it was already well out of the way at Redgate. The Clio drivers were at fault. I'd suggest a "full course yellow" so the drivers should all be aware that something's up by the time they get to the startline.

[Dave Brand]

Originally posted by Muppet
The Clio carnage wasn't due to the safety car because it was already well out of the way at Redgate. The Clio drivers were at fault. I'd suggest a "full course yellow" so the drivers should all be aware that something's up by the time they get to the startline.

Doesn't a 'Safety Car' board at every flag point give them a clue?

[Woolley]

Originally posted by Flagman
Will get worse next season when everyone can use the safety car instead of the B/Y flag - different SC car drivers at each round/circuit - sounds like they should rename it the Chaos Car.

Variation on the same thread, which is fair enough because it shows we're all concerned about it. It's gradually occurring to me that the problem is not B/Y, SC, double waved yellows or people jumping up and down waving their arms, all of which have been tried.

The problem, simply is inappropriate driving behaviour and poor observation. Amazingly, it's the series who are controlled most often that deal with it worst! frankly we could all stand across the track dressed as Mr Blobby with the same result. A bunch of idiots will behave as such, and a disciplined group of racing drivers will be fine. Series organisers, over to you?

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by PaulSands
What was with the melee following the deployment of the safety car all about?
To me the SC board and Yellow was clearly visible at the entrance to Goddards but everybody seemed to plough through regardless, a couple even attemtped overtaking moves, resulting in the inevitable once they exited and hit the straight...or in reality each other

Well I had a Pit-Lane wall view of the whole thing and I don't think that there is an Observer in the country who could have spotted and reported on everything that happened!!

I forget the exact rules for a safety car (someone will tell me ) but as I saw it.......

Startline displayed the SC board, followed immediately by Posts 1,2,3, etc. The flagman on the exit of Goddards was displaying (quite correctly) a Stationary Yellow to back-up the Waved at Post 1. Again no offense, but he then seemed unsure (from my view point) as to whether continue displaying Stationary or now go Waved with an SC board.

Question: Does the Safety Car board travel both directions (as per Red Flag, or just Circuit Direction?)

either way, it seemed that the only person to "see" the stationary yellow was the leader. Not only did the 2nd, 3rd and 4th place drivers try to get past but even after they had all realised their mistake, the pack behind them thought "cool, they're all going slow, I'll pass them on the grass!!!"

I'll leave the rest to your imagination except to say......

I'm glad that I was not one of the marshals from Post 1 trying to attend to the incident !!!!

[Stuart Hill]

But this whole incident would not have happened if the US Land-Line system was introduced and the idea of a "Full Course Yellow" was implemented!! I've seen it, worked it (both in the US and over here) and love it!! It's just Hillclimbing marshalling on a circuit. Maybe one day, The "powers-that-be" will recognise the value of it.

[JimW]

A bunch of idiots will behave as such, and a disciplined group of racing drivers will be fine.

And there is not much more to be said. All this talk of yellows everywhere, waved yellows and double waved yellows (For ***'s sake ) is not sensible. If drivers just did just one half of what the blue book requires there would be little cause for any difficuly.

Get a grip and do as you are told.

OK Rant over.

A pedant's note: double waved yellows had no place at that meeting, it was not an International.

I do hope that something was done about the car which made up from about 6th place to 2nd. All of this while under waved yellows and SC. And all of this while matters had settled down and the train of cars was well established.

Regards

Jim

[JimW]

Originally posted by crazystu
But this whole incident would not have happened if the US Land-Line system was introduced and the idea of a "Full Course Yellow" was implemented!! I've seen it, worked it (both in the US and over here) and love it!! It's just Hillclimbing marshalling on a circuit. Maybe one day, The "powers-that-be" will recognise the value of it.

Hi Stu

I'm not sure that I entirely agree with you. There may be some advantages to some form of open line but the best solution for racing with fewer marshals than we would like would not be simple. Yes, hearing what is going on at other posts is helpful but you need to be able to cope with (at least) two people wanting to talk to RC at the same time (and not necessarily about the same incident). Those channels need to be independent of each other.

Also it would be desirable to have the observers (who will almost always in the UK be the person doing the communicating) free to move about the post area and perhaps to assist with shifting a car when we are short handed.

So some kind of cordless telephone with a good design to provide a monitor channel which was cut out when the observer initiated a call to RC (but left that conversation on monitor for others). Oh, and how would we cope with two simultaneous channels being represented in the monitor channel? Not sure that one is easily dealt with.

Observing a race meeting is not the same task as a hillclimb. More often more cars involved, the likelihood of overlapping incidents and things don't come to a halt for every thing. Try doing it for a few years.

Regards

Jim

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by JimW
Hi Stu

Observing a race meeting is not the same task as a hillclimb. More often more cars involved, the likelihood of overlapping incidents and things don't come to a halt for every thing. Try doing it for a few years.

Regards

Jim

Sorry if my post came across like that, it was not meant to. I am fully aware of just how much more a Race Observer has to be aware of which is probably why I've never tried to be one !!
The point I tried to make was the idea of just shutting racing down circuit wide (aka Full Course Yellow) just as a Hillclimb shuts down for an incident. I don't mean to stop the cars circulating, just slow them down instantly rather than wait for them to pick-up the Safety Car. I think that this was part of the problem for the Clios as the SC was happily sitting at Redgate, waiting for the leader, whilst the incident was by the pit exit. Maybe a full course yellow type of approach could have helped.

[JimW]

I don't mean to stop the cars circulating, just slow them down instantly rather than wait for them to pick-up the Safety Car.

But that is not, repeat not, the point of a safety car. Yellow flags at the scene of the incident should slow cars down. Round the rest of the circuit where there is not an incident you do not need yellow flags. :confused: :confused: :confused:

A safety car is only needed where the cars are not obeying the yellow flags. Personally I think every safety car period is a statement that the organisers do not trust drivers to do as they are told. So we have to deploy a physical block and then it becomes important that cars do NOT SLOW DOWN until they arrive at the back of the train of slow cars. (Except they need to observe the yellows for the incident, of course.)

So unless you are going to wait for the cars all to get behind the train (and that can take several minutes or forever) marshals need to have confidence that drivers will slow down for yellow flags at the incident.

Nothing more and nothing less.

As I have said in another thread, I was impressed by the way in which the drivers in the Renault 2000 UK Group A (I think) did behave before (and after) the safety car gathered them up. This was while we from a rescue unit were attending to an incident. Good discipline and I felt comfortable while standing only 6 feet away from the trackside.

Regards

Jim

PS By "Slow down" I mean slow down, don't overtake, don't position yourself so that you are not in full control of the car, do be travelling at a speed such that if a marshal standing trackside points you over to the other side of the track you can respond, and, as the blue book says, "be prepared to stop. If you can acknowledge with a raised hand, that's great and gives confidence but I recognise that perhaps both hands on the wheel might be better.

[Muppet]

IMO there seems to be far too many incidents around the startline area when the safety car is deployed. The reason for this could be drivers not being aware of SC boards or it could be incorrectly deployed safety cars, or the leaders racing back to the line then slamming their brakes on and those behind taking avoiding action.

The oval system of instantly showing a full course yellow with no racing back to the line seems sensible to me. If yellows are shown on post then overtaking shouldn't happen anyway. If the drivers are passing multiple yellows and then SC boards a couple of posts before the startline then the leader should start slowing down gradually. In theory this should stop the "avoiding actions" and therefore pile-ups.

The only problem is implementing a full course yellow with all the posts at the same time. Donington has flashing yellow lights at key corners so this shouldn't be a problem.

[rdjones]

At the end of the day it was a Clio race - what more do u expect, at least they did a whole lap this time.......

[Alan Green]

Originally posted by crazystu
Startline displayed the SC board, followed immediately by Posts 1,2,3, etc. The flagman on the exit of Goddards was displaying (quite correctly) a Stationary Yellow to back-up the Waved at Post 1. Again no offense, but he then seemed unsure (from my view point) as to whether continue displaying Stationary or now go Waved with an SC board.

Question: Does the Safety Car board travel both directions (as per Red Flag, or just Circuit Direction?)

The SC board and yellow flag goes round circuit direction only, as the safety car approaches (or on the instruction of the race director for higher meetings). For Donington, post 39 can also be asked to display a yellow and SC board because the start/finish line has a blind approach and the cars get extra warning.

Originally posted by JimW
A pedant's note: double waved yellows had no place at that meeting, it was not an International.

Understand that, but a stalled car blocking 1/2 the track with spray and an approaching pack was too much like conditions two years ago for me (12+ FR's in 'stack' formation for those who don't know), and I did go double-yellow. I know it wasn't right but safety first.

Alan

[Pike]

Immaterial - take it back to basics i.e. waved yellow means slow down, be prepared to stop etc, if ALL races from F1 down to clubbies obeyed this rule there would be no need for safety cars or B/Y, they could race round the rest of the lap therfore not losing racing time also. In theory a full blown extrication should be able to take place under yellows IF the drivers took notice - which obviosuly majority have`nt got the brain power or common sense to do so, therefore forcing organisers/MSA to allow for safety cars. Be surprised if half the so called racers in this country know what a double yellow means.

[Pike]

And if drivers don`t adhere to flag signals throw the book at them, not just fines which are mainly immaterial for pro drivers - race suspensions with the proportion of that races salary going to the motorsport safety fund or similar. Be surprised how easy it is to lose a championship through a few non attendences of races and how soon things would start to change. I am not saying that the whole motorsport umbrella does`nt do this, at Mallory last weekend I would have felt reasonably comfortable going trackside with just waved yellows. IMHO I fell yellow flags have simply lost their value.

[Woolley]

It's really a question of do we want full course yellow or not? It seems to me we are going around in circles trying to avoid it because it's "The American Way" and just there to spice up the show, and we Europeans are far more sophisticated than that.

One word. Begins with Bull.

Americans have been doing this for a long time. They do it well. They use a landline to ensure it's efficiency, and it works at Ovals, Road Courses and Street circuits, it's just a different kind of discipline in the way you make your reports. Even if you don't use a landline, if the flags going out, put it out. Stop namby-pambying about does it go both ways, should we have a car at the front, whatever. The current method is not safe on a regularly occurring basis suche that at any one time there are at least two threads running on the subject. Yes it would be nice to bunch the cars up quickly, to make it tidy by picking them up at the start line, but it doesn't work safely enough, it can and does cause crashes, it doesn't protect the marshals, especially if they're at the start line area, it is not, in the words of the advert, conducive to safety and it needs to be changed.

And I promised no more rants on the subject. Oh well. New Year resolution maybe?

[Flagman]

Be surprised if half the so called racers in this country know what a double yellow means

As they are not part of the MSA rules then I would expect very few to understand double yellows.

As JimW and I have tried to point out - just obey the yellows displayed at and before the incident and then the problems go away. And if the drivers cannot understand that then they shouldn't be allowed out into the community let alone in a race car...