Historic cars

[MGDavid]

back on topic (!) - almost as many definitions as people
- one definition espoused by some is App K = historic, everything else = rubbish
- another is the 25 year rule, previously mentioned.
- Another might take a lead from FIA rules - IIRC a GpN homologation (for example) is valid for 8 (?) years after cessation of production; so once the current Hom runs out, it's historic.

Are the CSCC Future Classics historic or 'might be historic one day'?

[wheelsportaddict]

Originally Posted by SAMD

Is it just me, or does it appear to everyone that the most interesting 'historic' race cars are the ones we watched in period. If that is the case and I suppose it is, it follows that eventually there will be very few with an interest in 60s -70s cars. Is it likely that the 60s -70s stuff will become the pre war equivalent? with very little interest and eventually only the die hards running the cars.
Will the Brabhams and Chevrons etc. become ERA's and/or Delahay's?

Originally Posted by Adam43

There is something in that, but it is not a perfect rule. My favourites are before I was born.

That's not always the case. If it were, then my interest would be purely in mid to late 1980's race cars. But as it is, I have more of an interest (read unhealthy passion) for pre-war/vintage cars, especially E.R.A and Bugatti.

Having said that, I also love reading about and watching 50's 60's and 70's cars. There are only few cars from the racing series of the 1980's and 90's that I have any interest in.

[SAMD]

Originally Posted by wheelsportaddict

That's not always the case. If it were, then my interest would be purely in mid to late 1980's race cars. But as it is, I have more of an interest (read unhealthy passion) for pre-war/vintage cars, especially E.R.A and Bugatti.

Having said that, I also love reading about and watching 50's 60's and 70's cars. There are only few cars from the racing series of the 1980's and 90's that I have any interest in.

I would imagine you are more of an exception wheelsportaddict.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by grantp

Right, so that means that in 20 years from now Historic Racing Saloon fields will lack Fords and be full of Alfas. Sounds OK to me ...

Ahem

[JonWolfe]

Won't they have all rusted away by then? the Alfas...

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Ahem

Ah, but 20 years from now your Capri and B will in the Pre-Historics (Or VSCC, whichever is the more popular at the time).

The 'contemporay classic/historic' would be a Mk something Escort or an early Focus. Or early Mondeo.

Did anyone race a Mk1 Mondeo in period outside the BTCC and its national equivalents?

I'm a huge Ford fan for many reasons. After a couple of starter minis I moved to a Mk1 Escort GT and tried to stick with Ford products wherever possible for private and company car schemes. But when leggy executive clubs on wheels came calling GM was the only way to go if avoising the Merc/BMW image and prices.

Nevertheless Historic saloon cars based mostly in Focus and Mondeo, good though those cars may have been in the road market, does not make me salivate in anticipation for track use.

Perversely, perhaps, the Alfas just might.

[zefarelly]

I agree GrantP . .biggest problem for me is where the oomph goes . . .I will not tolerate FWD in anything ( although my mini van was a laugh, if a little small for certain tasks )

doesn't give one much choice these days

[grantp]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I agree GrantP . .biggest problem for me is where the oomph goes . . .I will not tolerate FWD in anything ( although my mini van was a laugh, if a little small for certain tasks )

doesn't give one much choice these days

My (ex AA) mini van was excellent for a number of odd tasks.

A friend called me one day to say that another mutual pal, scootering back from Devon, had broken down near a pub a Ringwood and was there any chance of collecting him?

I picked up my friend and we headed for Ringwood, found the pub, the rider and the scooter, managed to get both of the latter in the back of the van and returned to Pirbright all in one piece, scooter and 6ft+ rider in the back of the van.

On which basis I can't imagine what sort of important tasks a minivan might be too small for ...

[grantp]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

.I will not tolerate FWD in anything

Actually there may be exceptions to this tolerance.

Mrs. grantp had a Citroen ZX TD at one point that had rather good handling and was as much fun as a RWD car in many ways.

That was eventually replaced with a 1.8 petrol Xsara that, whilst lacking brakes when question's were asked as it aged, could be steered on the throttle with ease. Would have been great fun on the track (except for the brakes) had we kept it. The Pug 306 was, afaik, the same basic chassis set up and has a good 'track' reputation.

[Peter Mallett]

I recall in my Metro days being invited to see the CoC at Donington. Apparently he thought my constant two wheeled approach to Gerrards was over zealous. I suggested that I was only using one less wheel than normal.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

[zefarelly]

I had a 307 HD, Co. car, I tried so hard to kill it, but couldn't, didn't have enough oomph to get to the tree

I'm 6'3" . . . add 5'10" blonde . . . got a flat instead, and upgraded to a brunnette

[SAMD]

My son had a 306, 2.0 HDI thingy, I used it to do my race licence and they are indeed a super handling wee car. Unfortunately I spun it on the twisty bit with the instructor on board. He ordered me to drive straight back to the pits! (although he did give me my licence )

[djinvicta]

Liked Claires comment. Historic....anything ceased or had a facelift...yes..a few ex wives came to mind let alone MK1 Escorts!

[midgetman]

I had a ZX TD 3 door. I loved it! I reckon it would three wheel regularly oodles of low down grunt, but ran out of revs a 4500. Great fun!

[grantp]

Originally Posted by midgetman

I had a ZX TD 3 door. I loved it! I reckon it would three wheel regularly oodles of low down grunt, but ran out of revs a 4500. Great fun!

Yep, but it's a diesel and they do that. Dreadful 'off the line' on a junction or roundabout but over about 20mph or taking a line of non-overtakers on an A road - magic.

It about matched the 24V Senator auto I had around the same time - maybe even better up to about 80 if you pushed it. Had to drive it like a truck though and change up earlier than was usual habit in a manual. It cared not at all and just pulled like a train between about 1700 and 4500 revs. Handling was not at all bad consodering the heavy lump at the front.

The Xsara had a reasonable engine (Petrol, 1.8) and lovely handling but towards the end of our ownership a half decent braking activity would see smoke from the the fronts and very hot wheels. A second good application would induce brake fade. I suspect the rears were not working at all for some reason. Ok ish for regular road use but not great for the track. On the other hand you could place the thing wherever you wanted in mid bend with a deft touch on the throttle.

I considered keeping it as a track car but decided that trying to sort the brakes would be more trouble than it was worth what with likely resistance from management. At that point eldest daughter's then boyfriend wrote off his Golf so the Xsara became his cheap way of getting back on the road, though I'm sure he didn't appreciated its capabilities. Wrong 'image'.

Not many of either left on the road now but probably more ZXs than Xsaras, age for age?

[zefarelly]

our old Sierra Co cars at Sturtevant where good, the 2L wagon got us from a gig in Brixton at 10pm back to Shoreham for last orders! our boss had a 2L cavalier, M40 in an hour.

the 307hd handled badly and went badly, it barely managed 30 MPG trying. best thing about it was the colour, at least it was free, because I wouldn't have voluntarily ****ed on it if it was on fire. our transit was better in every respect, even with a laden trailer on the back.

not averse to Franco motors, my dads 405 Mi16 4x4 was great, the BX Gti wasn't bad either . . .

[midgetman]

This item at Monaco auction neatly brings together two themes in this thread - Peugeot diesels and the difficulties of running a modern car as historic if the future.

http://www.rmauctions.com/FeatureCar...arID=r347&fc=0

If the link doesn't work it's Lot 382, ex Le Mans Peugeot race car. OK given the EUR1.5 - 1.8 mil price tag will deter most mere mortals, how about this:

>>>>>>Starting and running this vehicle calls for specific equipment, third-party software licences and skills. The seller commits to providing the necessary technical support for a period of three years. This service will be provided at Peugeot Sport’s normal rates for technical support

And I bet PS's "normal rates for technical support" will represent a season or two's budget for the average Historic racer. I guess my son and his generation are going to be limited to watching their nostalgia cars in strictly-governed works parades in 20 years time.

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by midgetman

This item at Monaco auction neatly brings together two themes in this thread - Peugeot diesels and the difficulties of running a modern car as historic if the future.

http://www.rmauctions.com/FeatureCar...arID=r347&fc=0
....................

We were discussing this very car in my chat with Hindy on Wednesday at Midweek Motorsport.(excuse me name dropping ha ha) Its like I said there, technology has now moved the concept of "privateer" historic tyoe racing out of reach from the masses. That car takes an army of professionals to get it out of the transporter let alone do a lap somewhere.
"Sledgehammer" technology as a certain Race Director I know likes to call it is dying out and it will not be long before we are basically left with a certain period of motorsport that the average clubman can compete in and the other lot will be in museums and on stands at motorshows as lifeless features that we once loved to watch.

But......lets not give up hope (even though from my above post you may think i have). Where I used to live when i was a kid , the guy opposite me used to work on Scimitars. JT knows him very well, Nigel was a great laugh, looked like Kenny Everett, sounded very posh (really posh acent for south Essex) anyway I can remember Nigel talking about the technology on the then new BMW 7 series that had just come out and the fact that the new fangled service indicator and the electronics would be a nightmare and that you would have to go to BMW to get your servicing done. Well, you only have to look at Exchange and Mart to see that you can get your service indicator reset by buying a ten pound tool, and someone with a lap top can now plug into your ECU and boost it here and there....remember, your celphone has probably got more computing power than what it took to take man to the moon.....Technology moves with the times...and as it does...so do those who want to do what they say cant be done.... remember mobile phones used to need low loaders to be mobile!

So....shall we bid for it.....who has a snap on tool kit....and I will bring me HP MultiSmart laptop ha ha

[Derwent Motorsp]

Did not Sauber lose the programs needed to run some of their early C2 cars and thus could not do any demo runs?
I also seem to remember something similar with one of the F1 teams not having a computer old enough to run the software.

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Derwent Motorsp

Did not Sauber lose the programs needed to run some of their early C2 cars and thus could not do any demo runs?
I also seem to remember something similar with one of the F1 teams not having a computer old enough to run the software.

I hadn't heard those stories, Derwent but they certainly have a ring of truth about them.
I think there will be a whole generation of historic cars that will not be usable, unless the technology is replaced by, what Claire has kindly attributed to me (), 'sledgehammer engineering'.

[Simon Hadfield]

I think, John, that the usability will be driven by desire - if someone really wants to race one of these types of car in the future then the systems needed to operate the car will be found, developed, modified or simply replaced with the technology available at that point in time. As I have said before historic motorsport is fashion lead - if Monaco, say, were to run a race for "active era" cars then the industry would find the means to satisfy that demand - never underestimate the financially driven business model......

[MartinSmith]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

I think, John, that the usability will be driven by desire - if someone really wants to race one of these types of car in the future then the systems needed to operate the car will be found, developed, modified or simply replaced with the technology available at that point in time. As I have said before historic motorsport is fashion lead - if Monaco, say, were to run a race for "active era" cars then the industry would find the means to satisfy that demand - never underestimate the financially driven business model......

Exactly, as the second part of my post says... Like the computer, started out the size of a room for something that now you can get in a phone!

[johngee]

Originally Posted by Simon Hadfield

I think, John, that the usability will be driven by desire - if someone really wants to race one of these types of car in the future then the systems needed to operate the car will be found, developed, modified or simply replaced with the technology available at that point in time. As I have said before historic motorsport is fashion lead - if Monaco, say, were to run a race for "active era" cars then the industry would find the means to satisfy that demand - never underestimate the financially driven business model......

I take your points Simon and Claire but the desire doesn't necessarily provide the solution unless backed up by financial resource, which many historic racers don't (despite the appearance to the contrary ) have.
.....but this a is just a discussion between interested parties and enthusiastic amateurs..... apart from Simon for whom it's his business and he probably knows more than the rest of us put together. He may well be right and I hope he is - it would be a tragedy for the future to be denied the sights and sounds of the technology driven generation of historic cars.

[GORDON STREETER]

Yes modern technology is here to stay as it can only improve.
However I can remember several years back doing a "winter warmer" series when a couple of high tech (for the day) cars couldn't even start their engines because of electrical ecu related problems, at least my "old tech" banger is easy to work on:laugh

[Peter Mallett]

If your "old tech banger" has electronic ignition then it would be totally beyond me.