Chevron B19

[Simon Hadfield]

OK.... as we are talking of B19s let us say that the remains of a car are left over, at what point did that chassis cease to be "the car". The chassis presumably still has its Arch motors number stamped into it, the original driver presumably sat in it, if further it comes with the suspension, some bodywork....... surely this is still the car? Granted I am playing devils advocate here but .......is this not a fundamental question for both our sport and our industry?

[driftwood]

1 the car i pass comment about is not related to the Doctors car- i cannot comment at this stage on alexanders car as i have not yet looked up the names associated with it
2 the chassi in question came from USA ( and i stepped away from purchaisnig it) and does have the arch motors number and came OFF the car that has been rebuilt whether rightly or wrongly with a host of new parts inc chassis body some suspension and is running with the original plate in usa
I do not know what gearbox number it has
Yes in theory the original parts should have been either cut up and binned or sold ith the "new" but "original" car to keep it togther and show its provenance
Three years ago the pile of parts would be worthless and could never be used in historic races a sit would not get FIA papers but basement max has screwed up the system and now recreation/continuation/fake/replicas can now get HTP FIA papers that allow them to race- this is sadly wrong however the pile of old parts does not have the right to carry the chassi plate B19-71-10- the owner of the car built another car and transferred all the parts and plate to new chassis body and the car lives in in just the same way as if he had crashed the car heavily and wrecked it and then rebuilt the car to race again

how many March F1 741 cars did Brambilla have 1 or 12?

[Simon Hadfield]

Yes, but you rather miss my point. Why is the original chassis - Arch numbered and all - no longer the real car, surely the newly tubbed construct is the continuation car?, If the chassis plate confers such "importance" why is the sale of Chassis plates on ebay and the like so derided? Again I point out that I am stirring the pot here but I feel these are valid questions. Very obviously Brambilla had several iterations of one car....again any one of those entities represents a snapshot of the identity at that moment in time - why then could not any or all of his monocoques be restored (providing the damaged tub exists)?

[Dr. Alexander Lienau]

The complete list of owners and some of the races of my car Chassis No. 10 are published on the chevron heritage webside. The unbroken chain of owners is supported by the orginal papers, meaning the ONS booklet for the car in the seventies and all orginal FIA Papers for the car, owner per owner (they never gave is back to the FIA). In addition there are invoices concerning major rebuilds of the car. Every piece of paper concerning Chassis No. 10 is building the "History of Chassis No. 10" and is associated to my car.

I fully agree that it is very complicate to identify an orginal car only by the chassis No. you need the unbroken chain of owners. Because for sure the first body work of a racing car will be gone after nearly 38 years of continuos racing. For sure all brake disks are new and may be as well the brake pads, calipers etc. and possible the hoses and lines, the electric system all saftey equipment, fuel bag etc. On a higher level of sports car racing you will need for a season a spare engine, which will make things more complicate concerning the history. Every technical part has a life span, which will be more than once over after 38 years of racing.

At the end the most original part will be the main chassis which will have a stamped orginal No at the back end, where arch motors placed it. All the rest may be renewed even most of the panels to the chassis, if you like to have a perfect looking car. I personally think that in period a race car was in perfect condition in all technical and optical aspects when is appeared at a race track.

For sure I accept that people today think otherwise, when they think a car should express his history with a lot of scratches and damage from battles in the past, but I doubt, if that state of a car represents really an original race car as is raced in period.

I think to have cars on the grid in the best technical and correct state to race against is the reason to race with historic cars in a historical correct fashion. The question about chassis Numbers is more the thing for people who are only collectors or even worther investors.

[Simon Hadfield]

I have no issue as to whether your car is or isnt original or that the list of owners is or is not correct (for more on the pitfalls of that read the sorry saga of Brabham BT24/3 elsewhere on the internet.....) but if the above is really how you feel about the need to race the car as it should be then I fail to see why you are racing your car in Supersports. I have no feelings either way about supersports but it really does get to me when we are at an historic meeting and are getting reamed in scrutineering for a tiny detail on a car when Supersports are on the same bill....I learnt the other day that one of the very high profile cars in that series does not have (and according to my informant is highly unlikely to ever get) papers. If a silhouette series is needed in "historic" racing then I feel we have rather lost sight of what i thought we were trying to achieve.

[allenbrown]

The point that Simon raises is a very good one and is an issue I've discussed with Doug Nye recently as well.

In the case of Chevron sports cars, a picture seems to be emerging of owners taking their B19 back to the factory where a new B21 chassis awaits them. They take all the useful bits off their B19 chassis and build up the B21 chassis, leaving the B19 chassis redundant. So has the B19 been turned into a B21 or is the B21 a new car using components from the B19? I can't help feeling that this is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact.

In my opinion, the way the owner regarded this at the time is a key consideration. Did he think he had a new car or his old car rebuilt? Another key consideration is whether a new chassis plate was issued. In the case of B19s turning into B21s, new plates do seem to have been issued.

So when the original B19 chassis is salvaged and built back up as a B19 and also the B21, being regarded as a rebuilt B19, is converted back to its B19 specification, we have two B19s where originally there was one. If the B19 had already been rebuilt on a new chassis after a crash, we could have three. If a B23 out there also claims continuity back to B19 form, we could have four. It is too simplistic to say that one is real and the other three are fakes.

For these reasons, I think it is dangerous to take a purist view of these cars. The answer is to document every step of a car's life and to also document the history of other claimants to the same identity. Once all the facts are known, the name-calling tends to stop.

Allen

[driftwood]

Simon said
Yes, but you rather miss my point.I have seen where you where heading Why is the original chassis - Arch numbered and all - no longer the real car,where do you start and stop ie replacing an 18 year old race car with new chassis and body or a seriously shunted car with the same parts must surely constitute the car is alive and well with the chassis plate fitted and can race tomorrow and show its lineage with the owner(s) over the years -IF the old chassis body combo complete with stamped AM number whether chassi is straight or bent needs repair can not claim title to its VIN plate as that ha smove don but is merely a pile of used race car parts
If i take 3 legs from a Queen ann chair worth £30k and replace them with same material same shape refit to the chair is still "original" Queen ann chair wiorth £30k or there abouts- so can i take the 3 legs and create another " Original" Queen ann chair worth even half to 75% of the original chair value or do i have a replica Queen ann chair worh 10-20% of the original article?
surely the newly tubbed construct is the continuation car?,I would say it is the continuation ofthe original chassis numbered car ( with a blemished history now) BUT the pile of used parts do not give credence to rebuilding the car as the same number or even be allowed to insinuate it could be
If the chassis plate confers such "importance" why is the sale of Chassis plates on ebay and the like so derided?do you buy them and use them
Again I point out that I am stirring the pot here but I feel these are valid questions. Very obviously Brambilla had several iterations of one car....again any one of those entities represents a snapshot of the identity at that moment in time - why then could not any or all of his monocoques be restored (providing the damaged tub exists)?I have 4 of them in my shed i have more money than sense so i now commission you to rebuild them all fit new plates with correct number and enter all of them for you me and your mates ( i have no friends) intoTGP/Masters F1 races get FIA papers- what do you say now? -ok u decline the contract and another company does the work and i arrive with the 4 cars at the track and your client has the last version from the last race unmolested time warp car from the Brambilla museum restored by you for him/you to race what do you say then?--OK im playing devils advocate

Allen

I do not believe B19 cars went back to Bolton and where refitted into B21 chassis ( 1 and the same) i believe some of the cars ran B19 plates with B21 bodywork ( some B16 cars went back to Bolton and had replacement chassis for B19 race cars some where given new plates with same number as the B16 had ie 3 or 4 or 7 others had numbers allocated in the build number sequence) 1 poss 2 cars where returned later into B16 cars and i know 1 B16 ran as B19 21 poss 23 now as B16 again with original owner
i also believe some newly built 21 cars where updated to B23 again simple bodywork difference possibly a wishbone toelink change due to new tyre design
The B19 21 cars where often entered into races as updated to newer model for reasons such as start money was higher for newer cars or the sales patter to get the rental driver into your team car
take the chevron book and add up the number of B19 21 23 cars built- there where NEVER that many cars built as i know that at least 5 B19 cars rolled over into B21 and 2 or 3 B21 into B23 plus we know 2 or 3 B16 cars became B19 or 21 cars


Bottom line is i do not believe the used pile of race parts can claim title to the chassis number of the car as its right to do so was terminated by the then owner when he rebuilt the car into new chassis bodywork

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

It is a minefield and probably better removed from the Chevron B19 thread and given its own life.

agreed, but why do so many mines have the name Chevron stamped on them?

[allenbrown]

It's a minefield that is very specific to the B19s. I can't think of any other model of racing cars where more cars have been built/rebuilt for historic racing. Even the March 712M did not multiply quite like B19s.

So I think this discussion does belong here.

[driftwood]

At the risk of incurring Johns displeasure (!) Simon you are a coward!
If yr arguing about chassis body = a car then what do engine gearbox constitute?
there was a judges ruling on Old number 1 Bentley over who had what
is the 3 out of 5 parts rule still used?

OK i have 4wd March 791 F1 car 2 where made & number 1 is in Uncles Toms museum the other was "misplaced" found in my dads barn with no chassi plate fitted
i have traced all previous owners 3 raced it 2 didnt plus it had replacement chassis with owner no 2 after big shunt ( fotos in race mag) plate never re fitted car then changes bodywork shape to Lotus 80 in the rebuild races again then its lost for 20 years
it still has the correct gearbox number on the case correct brake suspension etc
can i fit a newly pressed chassis plate stamped 791/2 to this car with correct number?

John the chassis in question does NOT have the chassis number fitted it has the AM number stamp= 2 different things

For the Sun readers
Probity denotes unimpeachable honesty and virtue
With Probity in mind is this pile of old B19 parts the real car ?

Allen maybe the B19 should have been called a Rabbit!

[driftwood]

with regard to the engine i accept they blow up get scrapped/sold etc so can easily be taken out of the equation

a gearbox with its correct # adds to the originality of the car being the real deal in the event of an absent VIN tag but are NOT the defining evidence just add to the authenticity/probity ( we must use this word as it has been allocated to the thread) of the vehicle

However in the harsh reality of the day this pile of parts is rebuild and sitting in pitlane for £100k & can do pole position times are you going to be parted from your money or are you going to say hang on this aint right
the car is in usa with the original plate and the running gear swapped across to new chassis all FROM the owner who once had the plate and parts fitted to this old chassis

when the pile of old parts are for sale at a sum of money that your kids pocket money can acquire today you are easily parted from your money
(regardles of the reality that you will spend £50+k assembling the thing fit motor etc) and could have bought a car with no "dramas" attached for not much more

Yes we can call chevron cars/vin order a new model B19 21 23 car and go and race it but these cars will not be trying to say look im 1 of the original chassis numbered cars

I can buy a Lacoste T shirt offical branding for £15 and i can buy a copy shiort in HK for £4 or less- it looks the same
If you want the real McCoy with no hassle you pay the money for the right thing but you would not pay the full market money for something that is not right

[Dr. Alexander Lienau]

as a lawyer I learned early that it makes no sense to invent your own rules or laws, when there are already rules or laws to follow, but it is always helpful to know the rules before you start talking.

For our B19 discussion it is helpful to know that there is a FIA, with Mr. Max Mosley on top position, who has decided that they will offer an "official" history check and give you a Historic certificate.

The pocedure is time and money intensive and makes only sense for chassis owners, who can proove at minimum two thinks:

(1) History of the car from day one and from owner to owner prooved by original papers (not simple copies, with doubtful "quality"). The FIA makes a lot of cross checks especially contacting the previous owners. If after all that procedure there is from the paper side no doubt, the FIA publishes on their webside your application and especially the number you pretend to have. Only when the papers work is done and no one is argueing against your number than it comes the second step, meaning

(2) showing your car to an experienced FIA approved inspector. That inspector will visit you and will check everything and especially the chassis and the chassis number and takes all time he feels it is necessary.

(3) after that there will be a written "opinion" concerning the car and a international committee who decides if you get the FIA certificate or not.

All that can easily take two years of your time and not a small amount of money, but it is a clear and quite transparent procedure. Everybody who thinks, that he owns for sure the genuine car --chassis (may be+chassis plate) + history chain can and should apply.

If you only talk and try by talking to get the recognition that you own the genuine car you only generate doubts about your car. Go the direct way with your car and chassis Number to the FIA, ask for the certificate and if they grant it to you and your car I am nearly 100 % convinced no second chassis or what ever old or new part will ever get the recognition as the genuine car, because nobody else will have the complete set of papers.

Represent to all what you have and if your car deserves it, it will get easily the recognition as "the genuine Car Chassis No. 71-19-xy

[allenbrown]

The case of Bentley No 1 is useful as I think Justice Otton in that case used the "continuous footprint" phrase - i.e. if a car is dismantled into a set of parts at some stage in its life, you can't put a subset of those parts back together later and call it the same car. However, you can replace parts as you go along - as had happened on the Bentley.

The Bugatti chaps have the three out of five rule but that doesn't apply to cars from the 1960s/1970s era where engine and transmission were designed to be interchangeable. I don't see any use for that rule when talking about B19s.

[Dr. Alexander Lienau]

everybody can have his opinion concerning the FIA and the heritage certificate.

It is true that the applicant has to bring up the complete documentation by himself and it is true that the FIA do not tell you the exact rules what exactly they expect from you. In addition an applicant has a problem, if the certificate for his car is "official" refused. The FIA makes own research, but they do not tell you what they do. The FIA sends you questions and you have to reply. In summary it is no easy to fake because you never know what the FIA knows and if they get the impression you are trying to fraud them you for sure will not have to much pleasure with Mr. Mosley.

All that means a simple research and the the memories of some people are clearly not enough. You have to bring up the complete picture painted with original documents, which you can nowhere get without from the orginal owners and persons involved with the car. Be sure that the FIA do not accept a case where every paper is brand knew and people asure that the car is the genuine article only by saying and some doubtful copies and other "statements". You need a lot more as I explained earlier:
-clear chain of owners;
-papers of the car from period supporting that chain, for expl. results with the name of the owners, stamps in the papers of the car, prooving that the car took part for example from the scrutineers of the event
-purchase and sale contracts from owner to owner
-article in major magazines and newspapers telling the story of the car, which are a mimimum twenty years old or better older (a time when not to many people where interested in the historic racing cars);
-old pictures from the car in the different colours or with the modifications in period etc.

Absolute no important thing for the history of a B19 is the engine. My car started with a BMW 1.6 Litre engine, changed in the first year to a FVC than back to a 2.0 BMW M12, than a BDG 1.990 than back to a BDA 1.300 for winning the german hillclimb championship in the year 1980(!) in the class up to 1.300.

You need a day to change the engine in a B19 and you usually use the best engine for the series where you are racing the car as the car is used to be used since 37 years year after year engines come and (very expensive) go.

[John Turner]

OK, I've just spent over an hour trying to split/edit etc, so that we could have two threads, each without losing the continuity of discussion; hence certain posts remain on both threads. This one now for the B19 only please. The one below for the wider discussion:-

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=111626

[John Turner]

Sorry, but I've moved the last 3 posts to the new general discussion thread because I think that they are part of the wider issue rather than B19 specific, although I do have some sympathy with Richard's own view about what claims his original chassis can make and what it can't.

[helen]

Like Simon I will play devils advocate. I don't often appear on any of the Forums because it is very frustrating to read so much incorrect information especially about ourselves, chassis numbers & histories - anyway that could be a lifetimes thread - infact I've spent virtually 30 years archiving Chevron material. So I'm not going to answer which cars are 'real' or not. My question is, if a car was crashed in 1971 taken back to the Bolton factory & said crashed car sold to mainly NW England racers who then split the car up in what we now call 'in period' & remade them as new cars with no thought then to chassis numbers what consitutes the 'correct' car? When the AM number has been carefully grafted onto another chassis, who are you to know that it is in fact a fake? When a crashed car was thrown into the Lodge at Bolton but a new one made with the same number durng 1971 what is it? When a car goes abroad in 1971 & the plate is removed and put onto another car for the carnet as they were so expensive and the bond you had to put up was high or the car was sold in say S Africa (no specific reason for this choice) & the chassis plate taken off to put on another car for the return carnet, how do you sort that one?

When you look at a B19 the radiators are no longer made by serck, rose jonts are of modern configuration as they are no longer made in the old style, aeroquipe is used instead of the old pipe, brake pads are different, the aluminium is no longer Dural as unavailable but the closest to it, the camber links on the B19 are in eliptical tube which is now is only available in metric - mind you we have the tube especially hand made for us now so it is the same or is it, it's hand made?! - tyres are different even the Dunlops are a different size, tacho's are electronic, jump plugs & electric fittings are all modern as virtually nothing still available, silicone hoses instead of the old rubber ones etc., etc. Like Confucious said 'if you clasp your hands together even the air inside cannot stay the same'. It is an almost impossible task to retain a car as it was except by not touching it for the last 37 years - there's only one B19 like this - again don't ask me which one.

Having looked at hundreds of chassis plates over those decades I can now see an unoriginal one from 20 paces I am starting to be inclined towards the car is the chassis plate as that is the one untouched piece of the car. Happy for you to argue against me on this. In my experience too the most marvelously documented car can still be wrong, a particularly interesting one was a B19 purporting to be a special car with one of the best document trails I've seen but on inspection it was a B21....!

The FIA were going to work with the manufacturers on creating retrospective Homologation Papers & I certainly think this would be worthwhile to draw a line under the technical aspects of the car, especially whilst a few people in whatever marque are still alive & have that inside knowledge. Here at Chevron we have 6 of the original employees either working for us or with us, we have lost 2 this year and pray to God no more next. The FIA HTP also covers a car so it is technically in period, whereas before, the HVIF was stricter on the technical side as the car was to presented as it left the factory, not a period change for eg like B16 brakes (sorry another can of worms- Simon!!)

My views have changed over the years & there are lots of other threads which could come from this ie: why do you race an historic car because you want to win or sit in the car a famous driver drove & so on? But I think now my fundamental point is that for me the chassis plate is my first port of call, how do I know this because 'how can you tell an old man is old?' you just know. Sorry for all the old cliches, I'm waiting for your bows & arrows now.

[driftwood]

I like your post!!
however very disappointed in not telling what is real and what is not
I am reading 1972 73 As race reports and adverts on b19 21 cars i see some cars for sale with plate numbers or driver names
i see articles in race reports joe bloggs racing the ex john hine burton lepp gray b19 in bolivian 1200 meter race so some cars have a trail that is simple to follow and some are just obvious cars that are shunted written off and yet a miracle happens they re appear at an HSCC race in 1983 or 2006
now you do not need to be reader of The Times or Telegraph to work out that somefink as afoot
AND you know some B16 cars where stripped down and parts fitted to b19 21 cars and i do not beleive that Chevron built all teh 21 23 cars as per the build numbers as these B19 cars would hev been kitted out with b21 parts and not given a plate but possibly notched onto the counting stick

SO can we have transparency or will it be a guilty secret?

[helen]

All I can say is when you have, I don't want to say 'poor' records from the beginning it is very hard to build up a positive from that. Nowadays manufacturers are compelled and automatically make comprehensive records about every car they make. It wasn't like that in the 1970's. Though I think if we want to discuss records according to John? we should go to another Forum?

Even so, I'm not going to spend aons of my time letting people know what could well be the true records when almost everytime in the past when people are given information it is misused. I'm afraid all the people still around associated with the original Derek Bennett Engineering Ltd have had their fingers burnt too often to be happy about total transparency.

[allenbrown]

Helen, it really is lovely to have your insights here on this most dangerous of Chevron threads. I quite understand that there's a lot you can't answer. I hope there will also be things you can.

You are quite right to point out some of the events that can happen during a car's life that makes it so difficult to track it and document it. We can never know everything but the more we discover, collate and publish, the harder it will be for someone to falsify history.

I personally don't care if someone wants to race a Chevron B19 that was built in 1971 or in 1989 or in 2008 - as long as they don't try to convince the world that a new car is an old car and then make a profit out of some gullible soul. If a car was genuinely built in 1972 at the factory and has a dodgy second-hand identity but a completely kosher history since then it should just tell the whole story and let everyone see that is is genuine. If a car was built in 1986 for Thundersports and has taken a previously unused number then it should make that equally clear. As I've said before, if the facts are put into the public domain, a lot of the name-calling stops.

For example, I happen to have the results of the 1972 Course de Côte de Beaujolais in front of me and there in 23rd place is Hans Affentranger in his Chevron B19. I want to know which car that was and I want to publish that as it might just help an owner put all the pieces together. I also want to know about Jean-Marie Porcier's and Cyr Febbraio's and Ruedi Jauslin's of course - but I have the advantage of being very patient

Do stick around on 10 Tenths. The more you can add, the more we'll all learn.

Allen

[helen]

Thanks allen,

That is exactly how I feel.

I asked the FIA when the HTP's started could cars have FIA Heritage Papers as new cars so that the cars are clearly logged and easily identified for Organisers. It doesn't matter right now because the few cars that are made we can let the race organisers know about or they can ask but it is important for the future.

I do feel it has been easier though - one positive of the HTP's - to say more clearly whether a car is 'correct' or not as with old HVIF without the paperwork it couldn't race so if you clearly knew a car was not right it was most difficult if they had owned it for 10 or even 20 years to say anything & then it became ineligible to be raced. Now the market price generally tells you whether a car is genuine or not but not always the case. For B19's the market price seems to be lagging behind certainly the B8's so the range of poor through to excellent B19 cars are at the moment for some reason all about the same price. Not that we buy & sell cars - you need to ask Simon more about this market price reflecting the perceived historic status or not - as I am hopeless at selling cars, so just put people in contact with each other.

[helen]

Allen,

A case in point is your query about the B19 at Course de Cote de Beaujolais, I can't or won't answer you with just a plain one line sentence telling you exatly what you may or may not want to hear. Now a days I would want you to tell me as much as you know about the car & then ever so cautiously together, hopefully we would find that we were talking about the same car, your information would meet my archive information & then we sumise what is the true answer by back tracking through archive material & talking to people, drivers, owners, looking at bits of the car, chassis, chassis plate of course. Sometimes we can recognise just by sight who's work it is. This is a totally holistic approach which I believe is the only way forward. Even so, that's all well and good but most Organisers would still not know which is an original, new, fake, replica or bitsa car, they have no criteria for finding out.

[driftwood]

I disagree with what you have just said HelenA case in point is your query about the B19 at Course de Cote de Beaujolais, I can't or won't answer you with just a plain one line sentence telling you exactly what you may or may not want to hear. This smacks of secret squirel club
why should allen tell you something if you are not prepared to put it here- that is when i start to think somink not right here
I have just sat for 3 nights flcking through Autosport for 72 73 cars for sale ads pit n paddock race results/reports and ive found already some interesting points on b19 21 cars just for the British owned cars

For example robin smith had for sale B19 esq car that was built from nowt

he does not give it any number just chevron Gp6 or protype for sale he even states who made the chassis and it was in lancs!

talking to Brian robinson at the weekend
he bought ken walkers b16# 7 ex red rose and had it converted to B21 raced with Migault sold via bob howlings in the end ( he thinks maybe usa?) then bought ex DART B19 but it was not the eddie regan DART car

Humble had the B16 spyder car ran as B19 then it was crashed cut up threw chassis away so end of that car ( but 2 fakes exist!!) and sold suspension to Welpton/smith who built their own B21 ( they had it in kit from factory ) in their garage

Humble then had a new B21 kept the ft and motor from B16S as spares for their racing

trevor Twaites had B16 and ordered new b21 stripped out what he needed for the B21

same thing for B16#35 ro Roger Heavens became B21#16 in feb 72 AS has his advert selling the chassi body for £750 he even list the number it went to USA and has been there ever since yet 2 fakes B16#36 exist

all the while the info stays "secret" it allows the BS to carry on
FIA need to retract any papers on cars that are duplicating chassis numbers and allocate them blatantly obvious out of sequence numbers

[Dr. Alexander Lienau]

I fully agree with Helen`s approach how to clearify the history of a car.

If somebody comes along with a question about the history of a chevron B19 or B16 or B8 he should be the owner of the car in question or in front of the car and going to buy it. In that case he will have information concerning the history in his hands and can present some or all supporting history and can ask very concrete questions. In that case you get answers from people who really have information. That is my personell experience.

I think it is a very wise attitude not to tell the history of a certain chassis numbers to anybody who is not deeply involved as owner of the car. Only the owner or seller should decide, if he wants to make the history of his car public and to open a dispute about it. I did that for my car after I have made my homework completely and got the aproval from the FIA, which is the only relevant institution in that matter, if you like it or not.

If you have not such a clear history, but going clearly to 1972 or 1975 nobody should doubt to much about the correct number, because there might be in many cases a mixture of chassis and chassis plates by tax carnet or whatever reason. For example your brought your car in 1972 back to england and sold it there and bought a never B21 but attaching to that car the old chassis plate and "reimported your car".


In cases, where the history starts later as may be 1976 or after 1980 than you have to be very very careful because you nearly can be sure that there will exist another car, which will might have the papers from the original chassis number in period.

[driftwood]

If somebody comes along with a question about the history of a chevron B19 or B16 or B8 he should be the owner of the car in question or in front of the car and going to buy itRUBBISH this is how people get conned you get only what they want to tell you if you are open then you can have other info that can confirm things ie mechanic who worke don car or he willsay this car is fake becaus ei cut it up and threw it in the scrap metal bin
In that case he will have information concerning the history in his hands and can present some or all supporting history and can ask very concrete questions. In that case you get answers from people who really have information. That is my personell experience.It is NOT my personal experience i research each car myself and often the owner has some wrong info or even TOTALLY wrong!
I think it is a very wise attitude not to tell the history of a certain chassis numbers to anybody who is not deeply involved as owner of the car.and then you can cry to your mummy later when you find out that the owner told you lies!!
Only the owner or seller should decide, if he wants to make the history of his car public and to open a dispute about it. Most info is out there in magazine race perorts car for sale adverts all it needs is 6 people putting all info into the pot plus what the owners tell you to get the truth
I did that for my car after I have made my homework completely and got the aproval from the FIA, which is the only relevant institution in that matter, if you like it or not.WHO are the FIA to say what you present is the real truth! Do they then employ another guy to check what you say is true and do other research if they do not do this then they are not the best to say your car is real!- Dr A i can show you 3 cars in orwell that ar enot true cars but have "nice" race history with race wins good driver s race dthe cars but the cars are not from 1971 2 3 races all ne wcars after the real car was destroyed
If you have not such a clear history, but going clearly to 1972 or 1975 nobody should doubt to much about the correct number, because there might be in many cases a mixture of chassis and chassis plates by tax carnet or whatever reason. For example your brought your car in 1972 back to england and sold it there and bought a never B21 but attaching to that car the old chassis plate and "reimported your car".we do make allownaces for carnet papers with chassis numbers being moved around for EEc race travel BUT they wil lget re fitted after the race or it even sat with tape holding it on for 10 minute custom inspection!
In cases, where the history starts later as may be 1976 or after 1980 than you have to be very very careful because you nearly can be sure that there will exist another car, which will might have the papers from the original chassis number in period. THIS is exactly why we want open disclosure not secret squirrel club there are cars in EEc that raced in Italy only and went to the mountain races cars in japan raced there and then parked in garages or maybe crashed that you wil lnever know about 3 or 4 cars sold to USA new and then later 2 or 3 more sold via bob howlings to guys in 74- 76- as far a si am concerned anyone who keeps the info secret has something to hide and i will say here is a probem car