Weber DCOE- When first used? - Page 2

Mike Bell · 28 Jan 2019, 19:23 (Ref:3880257)

Just to clarify, what is being hunted is period evidence of Weber DCOE carbs being used on single or two seater race cars (i.e. not homologated) at International events up to the end of 1960. Photos, race reports, books......etc.

So far evidence has only been found for F2 Lotus 18 and Cooper T53 cars, but others that could be affected when applying for a first HTP or renewal without evidence to prove DCOE use are the Lotus 11, Lola Mk1 and Elva Mk5. And there’s quite a few of those around.....

There’s already a Cooper T43 owner attempting to get an HTP asking the same on Motorsport History, so it’s happening....

Duddha · 29 Jan 2019, 10:34 (Ref:3880386)

Apparent and documented research in-house is showing that anything pre-1958 cannot be linked to DCOEs in motorsport.

1959 would seem a sensible year if to consider their introduction to the world of motorsport but this has yet to be properly documented, in accordance with the specific car and specification claimed.

Then comes 1960 and press articles such as Motorsport Magazine which in May 1960 does document the use of 45 DCOEs on the Lotus Formula 2 cars at the Bruxelles Grand Prix. Then in May 1960, when detailing the Aintree 200, Brabham on his Cooper did run 42 DCOEs. You will note that this was still so particular and new to the world of motorsport, that it needed a special mention.

Other than that, in 1959 the works Lola Mk1 was on SUs, then the Lotus XV was on DCO3s, in 1960 the works Lola Mk1 went to DCO3s still so it wasn't a change that spread across the whole spectrum. You may also consider that DCO3s and DCOEs needed specific and different intake manifolds in order to be mounted so not just a bolt-on change.

Mike Bell · 29 Jan 2019, 12:30 (Ref:3880400)

Thanks once again for your input, Duddha.

None of this affects me, but out of curiosity, what will happen to the cars that have previously issued HTPs but are fitted with DCOEs when they shouldn’t be?

Duddha · 29 Jan 2019, 12:58 (Ref:3880406)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

Thanks once again for your input, Duddha.

None of this affects me, but out of curiosity, what will happen to the cars that have previously issued HTPs but are fitted with DCOEs when they shouldn’t be?

Always a pleasure Mike and I guess the cars will have to be corrected or proven to be in accordance with period.

Mike Bell · 29 Jan 2019, 13:23 (Ref:3880413)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duddha

Always a pleasure Mike and I guess the cars will have to be corrected or proven to be in accordance with period.

In the interim, I’m wondering if organisers with race series that include affected cars will have to compromise.....

Duddha · 29 Jan 2019, 14:13 (Ref:3880428)

They already compromised, scrutineers not reporting the papers when concerned and getting the owners to carry the work beforehand means it will be the fault of you know whom.

PeterMorley · 29 Jan 2019, 16:48 (Ref:3880457)

So, if you fit brand new copies of DCOs the cars will become "original" again!

Apparently a few people have made copies of DCOs over the years, with varied success - turns out the originals are rather more complex than they appear and accuracy is important.

I assume there were DCO1s & 2s.
Lots of cars have DCO3s and some DCO4s.
The E in DCOE is presumably for the 5th generation and they changed to letters rather than numbers at that point?

Mike Bell · 29 Jan 2019, 17:06 (Ref:3880469)

As the originals were sand cast, would it be cost effective for a manufacturer to reproduce the DCO in the small quantities needed? Then there would be the specific to engine type manifolds needed as well. Can’t see it happening, but it would obviously get a few people out of difficulties!

Gerard C · 29 Jan 2019, 17:48 (Ref:3880474)

Seems Jenvey makes something looking like sand casted DCOE's with and injector inside. I guess at least Andy and may be Viva saw this at NEC. Different from a DCO I admit.

PeterMorley · 30 Jan 2019, 09:13 (Ref:3880604)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

As the originals were sand cast, would it be cost effective for a manufacturer to reproduce the DCO in the small quantities needed? Then there would be the specific to engine type manifolds needed as well. Can’t see it happening, but it would obviously get a few people out of difficulties!

It's a lot easier/cheaper to reproduce sand cast things than die-cast.

C&G used to make 58DCOs.
At least one outfit are currently making 45DCOs for Jaguars.

Not sure how much the Jag ones are but the 58s were quite (!) expensive.

The FIA will probably say the car is worth far more than the cost of the carbs - which is true for some of them but possibly not for some Climax single cam powered cars for example.

I guess it depends on your definition of cost effective.

Mike Bell · 30 Jan 2019, 09:30 (Ref:3880611)

If the need is great enough, Hopefully it will happen!

PeterMorley · 30 Jan 2019, 17:01 (Ref:3880707)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

If the need is great enough, Hopefully it will happen!

As long as need translates into enough money, the replica DCOs were eye wateringly expensive.

Or there might be a rush on SUs, but some new SUs can be surprisingly expensive as well.

Duddha · 31 Jan 2019, 10:02 (Ref:3880845)

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

It's a lot easier/cheaper to reproduce sand cast things than die-cast.

C&G used to make 58DCOs.
At least one outfit are currently making 45DCOs for Jaguars.

Not sure how much the Jag ones are but the 58s were quite (!) expensive.

The FIA will probably say the car is worth far more than the cost of the carbs - which is true for some of them but possibly not for some Climax single cam powered cars for example.

I guess it depends on your definition of cost effective.

Linking correctness and respect of history to costs would only kill the category, much more cost effective to fit a VTec engine in a Cortina isn't it? But then, it's no longer linked to what it was. Replicas are not historic but the least is to have them like the period ones.

Gerard C · 10 Feb 2019, 15:25 (Ref:3882960)

Just back from Rétromobile, seems Jaguar Heritage has some old 45 DCO3 (#109 for instance) fitted on D Type. Hope this can help. More details may be John elwin knows more.

Mike Bell · 10 Feb 2019, 15:42 (Ref:3882964)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Just back from Rétromobile, seems Jaguar Heritage has some old 45 DCO3 (#109 for instance) fitted on D Type. Hope this can help. More details may be John elwin knows more.

Yes, 45s being fitted on Jaguars was mentioned a few posts ago. I think it’s 40s that are required for the smaller engined cars discussed (much) earlier....