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View Poll Results: Do the Mustang and Camaro have technical parity after Round 4 of the 2023 ATCC?
Yes, definitely. 7 41.18%
Unsure or no. 10 58.82%
Voters: 17. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 21 May 2023, 11:40 (Ref:4157122)   #1
V8 Fireworks
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V8 Fireworks should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Do the Mustang and Camaro have technical parity?

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A test Ford Supercars engine map has shown its worth if results from practice at the Ned Whisky Tasmania SuperSprint are anything to go by. Speedcafe understands that three Mustangs used the test map, and that they so happened to be the fastest three Mustangs in Practice 1.
https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/05/21...t-in-tasmania/

Furthermore, a circa $40m AVL dynamometer (as also used by the top Formula One teams) may provide clearer answers:
Quote:
It was long thought that Australia was without an AVL transient dyno. That is, until the [ATCC] industry recently became aware of one housed at Melbourne engineering firm DS International. There is sudden confidence the quipment will be up to the task.
https://www.v8sleuth.com.au/the-engi...percars-noses/

The AVL dyno will help to evaluate allegations of unequal inertia (and thus unequal engine response and engine braking) between the two engines.

Thoughts?

Even if you did vote unsure, do you suppose the difference is so negligible that Mustang operators could have already won all nine races easily if they had simply executed setup, driving and strategy at a higher level, as due to world class technical parity processes one can be confident the vehicles perform and respond identically or all but identically so as to have negligible difference?

Conversely if Mustangs are much more competitive after formal homologation of this Symmons Plains practice engine map (and fitment of a heavier flywheel to the Chevrolet engines if necessary in response to AVL testing), would it support the notion of a prior disparity or merely be a coincidence?

Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 21 May 2023 at 11:46.
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Old 22 May 2023, 05:14 (Ref:4157388)   #2
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Mixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridMixer should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Maybe they don't but it's clear at this stage the issue is with Ford's engine drivability and not anything that Supercars have done.

Ryan Walkinshaw has posted that Supercars are providing all possible support and are aware of the issue and that they are working with Ford to fix it as soon as possible. It seems the Ford's power delivery hurts the tyres.

How the Ford teams didn't pick this up through testing is beyond me.

I would ask a fair question - MOStech was meant to be the engine supplier for Ford, and have amazing pedigree with championships for SBR and DJR.

Unfortunately Steve Amos became critically ill last year and had to sell the business to Rob Herrod - no stranger to performance engines but lacking the long history of Supercars involvement.

Is this part of the issue?

Either way - the sooner the better for these issues to be resolved.

Right now Ford teams who don't read the rule book, give away race positions with bad strategy, and Ford drivers who crash too frequently are being given a pass on the parity excuse. Parity is NOT the sole reason for Ford's championship points position. DJR and Tickford this year have both been objectively awful. Grove show flashes of brilliance. WAU has one side of the garage always up there and the other side mostly not. None of these things make for winning races of championships.
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Old 22 May 2023, 06:02 (Ref:4157390)   #3
V8 Fireworks
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Ryan Walkinsaw notes potential points of disparity:
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Detuned Coyote engine which stutters at certain rev ranges, downshift issues, and torque delivery issues on acceleration which smashes tyre life.
Off the mark? Who knows. Hopefully the AVL dyno will provide clarity.
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Old 22 May 2023, 07:48 (Ref:4157402)   #4
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Ryan Walkinsaw notes potential points of disparity:
Actually if you read these they are not points of disparity.

The engines have parity but the way the Ford delivers the power hurts the tyres which hurt the car's performance.

No longer an engine disparity but a Ford engine issue that needs to be solved before the cars can have true on-track parity.
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Old 25 May 2023, 04:27 (Ref:4157834)   #5
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GTRMagic:
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From This Clip about the CoolDrive car..

..could you conclude that V8Supercar is fiddling with engine maps on the run…
..and could you further conclude that the change after the first session led to a reduction in speed and therefore competitiveness of the #3 CoolDrive car?

And if so.. when can CoolDrive Racing, for example, expect a cheque from V8Supercars for a lack of competitiveness, and the accompanying lack of teev air time as the car was at the back
It would seem so, the mark of a category that is not very organised!

It seems there are a lot of factors which were beyond the scope of Craig Hasted's dyno to assess, when he was putting the paritised engine maps together.


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Can KRE rustle up enough Gen3 Chevrolets to power the whole field and bump off this ineffectiveness means of carrying out reparitising engine performance in public?
I'd rather they didn't. The Coyote sounds a lot better! It has much more of an angry high-pitched sound (4-2-1 headers instead of 4-1?).

A category engine should be a neutral one like a Nissan VK56 or Toyota 2UR.
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Old 25 May 2023, 05:22 (Ref:4157842)   #6
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Maybe they don't but it's clear at this stage the issue is with Ford's engine drivability....
Based on what? The teams saying there is a problem? Especially a problem of a control component beyond their control?

Teams say lots of things to deflect blame, there have been many catastrophic engine failures with conrods bouncing down the road, only for the team to say it is a gearbox/electrical fault.

I don't know for a fact there is or is not a drivability problem with the Ford.

But I do know for a fact that Mostert was a total of 0.32 second slower over the last 15 laps compared to Brown, and he had to pass 3 cars.

Last edited by Mr X; 25 May 2023 at 05:29.
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Old 25 May 2023, 05:49 (Ref:4157846)   #7
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I don't know for a fact there is or is not a drivability problem with the Ford.
Ryan Walkinshaw is a no bullshit guy, and I trust implicitly what he says.

I don't doubt there is an issue that is affecting Ford's long runs.

However DJR and Tickford both have major issues that are affecting their results more than whatever difference the engine issue makes.

Grove and WAU can both really turn it on but both drivers are then lone gunners against other teams, and there's no effective contribution from the other side of the garage.

DJR themselves have even basically come out admitting their issues are much bigger than just parity.
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Old 25 May 2023, 07:36 (Ref:4157861)   #8
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Ryan has a shot at Roland.

https://www.v8sleuth.com.au/walkinsh...n-parity-feud/
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Old 25 May 2023, 08:23 (Ref:4157866)   #9
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He says Roland is demonstrably and quantifiably wrong

Then doesn't demonstrate or quantify why.
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Old 26 May 2023, 04:40 (Ref:4158003)   #10
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Depends on which side of the fence you are on I guess.
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Old 26 May 2023, 04:51 (Ref:4158004)   #11
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Depends on which side of the fence you are on I guess.
I'm not on either side but if someone is demonstrably and quantifiably wrong, the next thing I expect to hear is it demonstrated and quantified how they are wrong...

Ryan and Roland are both credible people.
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Old 26 May 2023, 13:01 (Ref:4158045)   #12
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Torque sensors to be introduced on all vehicles to allow for real-time measurement on circuit:
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The torque sensors will be fitted to the rear axle, to provide a ‘real-world’ measure of torque output at the rear axle, and hence of engine/powertrain performance.
Sounds like a good move!

In any case the supposed issues of the Coyote are thought to be due to the way it has been detuned by 30hp peak (and elsewhere in the rpm range) down to match the less capable LS engine, thereby introducing unforeseen drivability issues in the process.

Why not run the Coyote unrestricted and allow KRE to do some development to find the missing 30hp (and the rest throughout the rev range) on the LS unit? LS enthusiasts keep saying how 2-valve engines are just plain better after all...

It is said that the 630hp tune of the 5.4L Coyote in MARC car service does not increase the rebuild intervals in any way and has no effect on durability, so there is no downside to upping the output from 600hp to 630hp.
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Old 27 May 2023, 00:12 (Ref:4158118)   #13
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Supercars doubling down on new engine parity measures

https://www.speedcafe.com/2023/05/26...rity-measures/
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Old 27 May 2023, 01:32 (Ref:4158119)   #14
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I'm not on either side but if someone is demonstrably and quantifiably wrong, the next thing I expect to hear is it demonstrated and quantified how they are wrong...

Ryan and Roland are both credible people.
Absolutely, but theres always going to be a he said she said comparison when theres blue and and red.
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Old 29 May 2023, 15:41 (Ref:4158763)   #15
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Absolutely, but theres always going to be a he said she said comparison when theres blue and and red.
Blue and yellow? I'm still unsure why more efforts weren't put in to get some turbos out there -- be it Nissan Z, Toyota Supra, BMW M4 or whichever.

Granted the ATCC's technical parity measures seem barely up to the task of balancing two vehicles, let alone four or five.

Still... a more varied grid would have provided for a much better beginning to the next chapter of ATCC racing.
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