[Rules] DRS: Is it time for it to go?

[Richard Casto]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

I watched the Verstappen/Russell without DRS and thought that the lack of DRS improved the racing, as instead of a battle that lasted one lap before Verstappen breezed past on the straight we had a battle that lasted multiple laps with Verstappen stuck behind Russell but unable to get by.

Nice post, but to the point above.

I agree it was interesting to watch. But I also think part of why it was interesting is that Verstappen "knew" he should have been able to get past. And that if DRS was working he would have been more confident in making a pass work. I ended up watching that entire battle from Verstappen's onboard. So he was making multiple attempts in the hopes that DRS would work. At other time I think he was probably working to recharge battery, manage tire, etc. But... if there were no DRS available. I tend to think that the pass would have been difficult if not impossible unless George made a mistake. And if that was the situation, why would Verstappen have continued to try and try and burn up his tires in a futile attempt? I don't think he would have. We would NOT have seen multiple laps of attempts. He would have done (much earlier) what he eventually did and that was to pit to try to run without being stuck behind him.

My point is that, I don't think we can view that specific battle as an example of what a battle in a world without DRS would look like. I think a core question is... Is that type of situation in which Max looked likely to really not be able to overtake is what we want? Granted, it was top drivers is maybe the top three cars (assuming Mercedes is the new #3 in the pecking order). So maybe that is exactly what should have happened (Max could not pass)? I suspect that if that was the answer to the larger F1 audience on the whole, they would not agree. They would argue that Max was faster and there should have been a way to get around short of George making a mistake. I am not saying one way or another that I agree, but I suspect that people (on average) would not be happy if DRS went away tomorrow.

Richard

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

However, our original opinions on DRS probably came from the fact that you think a race like the Russell/Verstappen battle is not good for F1, while I think it is good, and so seeing an example of it was always going to reinforce our previous views, and doesn't necessarily reflect a biased opinion.

I'm with you all the way on this.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by BTCC frog

However, our original opinions on DRS probably came from the fact that you think a race like the Russell/Verstappen battle is not good for F1, while I think it is good, and so seeing an example of it was always going to reinforce our previous views, and doesn't necessarily reflect a biased opinion.

in truth, i loved the battle and think it speaks well about the future battles this crop of young talent can bring to the table.

what i dont think is good for f1 is when a significantly faster car can be held up by a much slower car. defense is of course important and can be wonderful to watch but the reminder about how much faster the following car has to be in order to affect a pass does challenge my notions of what a 'race' or 'good racing' should be.

no doubt im overstating my point too much but i hope that my meaning comes across.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

in truth, i loved the battle and think it speaks well about the future battles this crop of young talent can bring to the table.

what i dont think is good for f1 is when a significantly faster car can be held up by a much slower car. defense is of course important and can be wonderful to watch but the reminder about how much faster the following car has to be in order to affect a pass does challenge my notions of what a 'race' or 'good racing' should be.

no doubt im overstating my point too much but i hope that my meaning comes across.

I have said it before and I might repeat it again, it is all about time, how short braking zones now are in time, how long cars are in a corner, how long they are on a straight etc. Reduce times and the opportunity to gain an advantage is reduced so we then see almost reckless driving because that is what drivers have to do to try and pass another car and frustration on the driver's part builds up until he tries something he normally would not. The manic headlong rush to reduce lap times is the single cause of this problem and it is only going to get worse. Of course those who want to see exciting racing always want to see faster cars but it is a self defeating ideal but carry on.

[VIVA GT]

Just to throw my hat into the ring on this discussion, surely, if the cars are evenly matched without it (as they appeared), but both had working DRS. If Max had got past George on one lap because of the DRS, surely George would have been able to do the same thing the next time around?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Just to throw my hat into the ring on this discussion, surely, if the cars are evenly matched without it (as they appeared), but both had working DRS. If Max had got past George on one lap because of the DRS, surely George would have been able to do the same thing the next time around?

So if we take that to its end point each car would have passed the other until the end and the one who worked out the penultimate pass to be in front for the chequered flag would be the winner. I get your point but a thousand reasons can change a good idea when you are in a race including the boss telling you not to pass. Get rid of all the extraneous crap, give the driver a car and let's see who can manage the race best from the driver's seat without pit management. It would also have the side effect of saving Horner and Toto from having a nervous breakdown and developing stomach ulcers. F1 is micro managed to a ridiculous degree and some of the control should be removed for the good of the sport.

[S griffin]

We don't need loads of overtaking in F1, we just need the cars to be close enough to battle. Strategy is still important, so the pit wall will still have a part to play. It is still a sport of high maintenance. The driver still has a part to play though, even if it is less nowadays

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

We don't need loads of overtaking in F1, we just need the cars to be close enough to battle. Strategy is still important, so the pit wall will still have a part to play. It is still a sport of high maintenance. The driver still has a part to play though, even if it is less nowadays

Like a lot of fans you don't seem to understand that shortening lap times is have a negative affect on the sport and forcing drivers to do stupid things to overcome the problem. Why have a driver at all if he is leaving decisions to others, his tactical judgement used to be part of winning a race and not a proxy to hold a steering wheel and push buttons.

[S griffin]

I don’t think shortening lap times is a problem, although teams are very keen to maximise their strategy. The drivers are often at the mercy of what the teams want to do. Their impact has been lessened

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Casper

...Get rid of all the extraneous crap, give the driver a car and let's see who can manage the race best from the driver's seat without pit management...F1 is micro managed to a ridiculous degree and some of the control should be removed for the good of the sport.

Originally Posted by S griffin

...The drivers are often at the mercy of what the teams want to do. Their impact has been lessened

this might just be the one area where we all agree.

if the drivers had to work out more of the strategy for themselves, what laps times to aim for, when to pit for fresh rubber, which part of the track to engage at and when to hold back and without the aid of real time pit wall data simulations, then perhaps they could achieve the relative performance differences needed to affect close racing and passing in a more natural way.

given the modern tools available to increase a drivers preparedness level, lets see how well they have learned and with with so many races on the calendar, try it out at one or two races i say.

at this point, does the pit wall need to make racing at Barcelona easier for the drivers?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I don’t think shortening lap times is a problem, although teams are very keen to maximise their strategy. The drivers are often at the mercy of what the teams want to do. Their impact has been lessened

If a braking zone is reduced in time by 50% you don't think that presents a problem for a driver who would like to use it to pass someone? Truly?

You must be one of those that believe that faster laps mean better racing, I am sorry to disappoint you but it is exactly the opposite in practise. It is so obvious I can't work out why there is nothing spoken about it to tell the truth.

[S griffin]

Good point there. To be fair I don't see why laptimes need to be so low. I often refer to MotoGP. Their laptimes pale into significance compared to F1, but no one notices. They look fast enough without needing to be ridiculously fast and the spectacle is a lot better as a result

[bathurst77]

I would prefer a return to the old KERs or a push to pass. Whereby drivers have a Limited amount of extra power they can use at their discretion, but once you have used up your share, its gone for the day.

Means that the car behind doesnt automatically have an advantage but is an extra tactic and interest for the race.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

I would prefer a return to the old KERs or a push to pass. Whereby drivers have a Limited amount of extra power they can use at their discretion, but once you have used up your share, its gone for the day.

Means that the car behind doesnt automatically have an advantage but is an extra tactic and interest for the race.

Again, agreed. If we have to have artificiality built in for a driver to be able to overtake another driver, then that surely has to be limited. 'Breeze-past' DRS, available for almost the entire race has to go....

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Casper

The manic headlong rush to reduce lap times is the single cause of this problem and it is only going to get worse. Of course those who want to see exciting racing always want to see faster cars but it is a self defeating ideal but carry on.

Is overtaking actually significantly better with the slower F2 cars or the much slower F3 cars?

From what I can tell the new generation F1 cars are at about the same level as F2 cars for ease of overtaking, despite the F2 cars being 10 seconds per lap slower.

I don't watch F3 closely enough to know if they race much better than the other two classes.