Modern Group A

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by one five five

I have been to all Bathursts, and most New South Wales ATCC/AEC/V8Supercar events for more than 30 years

I rest my case then.

so then why do you not like where V8 Supercars are heading with their COTF program? and everything else that their doing. if the racing you preferred were to be alive today, do you really think that the cars would be just as good with the modern cars going round today? I know you can't please everyone. but you can't bring back Group A racing either..times/rules/cars/opinions have moved on.

and if you wanna see some real Production racing here it is: http://www.apcc.com.au/

I dont watch it , but you prob dont care why I dont.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by FAS33

so then why do you not like where V8 Supercars are heading with their COTF program? and everything else that their doing. if the racing you preferred were to be alive today, do you really think that the cars would be just as good with the modern cars going round today?

Because i am not a fan of 'parity' racing that penalises those who do a good job and rewards mediocrity

CotF takes all development out of the sport. There are control chassis, control tyres, hell even control wheels. Where is the variety??

CotF spec cars are not traditional touring cars, their design is more at home on a Sports Sedan grid....

A modern form of Group A would certainly provide interesting racing. It would be different racing to what CotF will provide though, as all the cars won't be exactly the same....

Originally Posted by FAS33

and if you wanna see some real Production racing here it is: http://www.apcc.com.au/

I dont watch it , but you prob dont care why I dont.

I actually do care why, given you earlier stated you like to watch the V8Utes, which run to effectively the same specifications as the Australian Production Car Championship

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by FAS33

just 1 question , have you (or any others that favour Group A) watched a V8 Supercar race

I have. I marshalled Surfer's Paradise in 2005. I've also watched the tv coverage extensively, including Bathurst live.

The Surfer's experience was good. They make a lovely noise and they look good. I realise a street circuit puts limitations on the racing, but arguably V8s have been concentrating on more street circuits over race tracks so it can be considered a fair representation. You've also got to accept that a lot of differences are down to 20 years of development, thus V8s suffer from the modern disease of 'I had to look after the tyres' whereas GrpA moved around a lot more. The other crucial difference were ETCC races were 500k enduros with multiple classes against the 3 sprint format, one class. In other words, we're not comparing like with like entirely.

My preference is for GrpA mainly because of the variety. All V8s handle roughly the same - set up differences notwithstanding - whereas the Rovers, Beemers and Volvos had very different characteristics from each other. I'm also in favour of Touring Cars being built up from the road chassis as a means of proving the model. If you want a good race car, better build a good road car first. And they certainly weren't slow. Again, 20 years of engineering advance would have to be taken into account in comparing lap times.

[DV_08]

I would like to see the cars with more of there own identity, probably hard to pull off a good set of rules though. I really think you do need parity between them though, you have enough people complaining about the current 888 and FPR dominance. I think the early group A years in Australia produced a good range of cars with reasonably similar overall performance but seasons like 88,89 and 91 were dominated by one car. I did like the variety of the cars at the end of the group c era but they appeared to have a lot of problems with homologation. I guess I have to say that I saw the group A era on DVD converted from VHS, many of which I uploaded to youtube.

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by FAS33

just 1 question , have you (or any others that favour Group A) watched a V8 Supercar race irl?

I've remained a lurker in this thread so far, and as someone from a different generation to both David and Woolley (sorry gents, I tried to be as gentle as I could) and from the same generation as you, I have to agree with them.
Yes, I have been to V8SC races, from permanent tracks, to street circuits, over a number of years.

The reason I don't like V8SC because it has brainwashed many people into thinking it is the ducks guts of motorsport, when it is at best, motor entertainment. At worst, it is a poor warmup act to a concert. I also have issues with the categories honesty (racing as 'production' 'touring' cars instead of Sports Sedans)

I love watching multi-class racing, where there are actually races happening in races; and enduros are enduros, not buying yourself a ticket to the last 20 laps.

I think that a production based category, such as a modern Group A, would provide much better racing, and as such better viewing, than the boring processions we have now. Oh, sorry we don't have processions, we have smaller tanks and soft tyres to promote overtaking...my bad.

Put simply, I would rather see someone struggle with their car at the end of a long race, being caught by someone in a different car who is faster through corners/slower on straights; where the cars are limiting factors and have different issues to overcome to the bloke next to them.

Alternatively, lets call the category Sports Sedans, and allow all sorts of silhouette racers to enter, without the CotF underpinnings. I have to admit, watching a 'Holden Commodore/Ford Falcon' go up against the Hossack Audi, Ricciardello Alfa or the Bailey 'Aston' would be awesome.

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by FAS33

I rest my case then.

so then why do you not like where V8 Supercars are heading with their COTF program? and everything else that their doing. if the racing you preferred were to be alive today, do you really think that the cars would be just as good with the modern cars going round today? I know you can't please everyone. but you can't bring back Group A racing either..times/rules/cars/opinions have moved on.

and if you wanna see some real Production racing here it is: http://www.apcc.com.au/

I dont watch it , but you prob dont care why I dont.

The way I see it is a philosophical difference between parity-spec racing designed purely as a commercial enterprise (similar to the evolution Nascar went through) versus allowing a variation in spec within certain parameters - a modern equivalent would be GT2 or GT3 where you have Astons, Porsches, Lamborghinis, Corvettes with different layouts, engine sizes etc.

The problems with Group A have been documented, I'm not sure if the rules evolved but perhaps they could have been - dropping the evolution idea and adjusting the turbo parity for example?

Full-production racing is not really relevant here, that existed alongside Group A and earlier also.

[Mr Revhead]

Just wondering, are the current BTCC cars started from a production shell? Or scratch built? Are there any top class touring car classes left that start off with a production shell?

[Woolley]

I don't follow BTCC but I believe they're built up from a shell, as are WTCC.

[mac]

Originally Posted by one five five

Because i am not a fan of 'parity' racing that penalises those who do a good job and rewards mediocrity

... and spend shedloads of money.

COTF is about trying to keep costs down, thereby making it attractive to new (and existing) manufacturers/teams. Key word there being "trying"...

V8s still absolutely rewards those that do a good job - why else do you think Triple 8 and FPR have dominated every event this season!?

It is not necessarily about penalising "those who do a good job", it's about who can do the best job with a certain package - what odds Triple 8 are still right near the front in the COTF?

Now, if your argument is variety on the grid, then I can understand why COTF is not for you...

[Mixer]

Only partly on-topic:

Was at a high-end panel beaters yesterday and saw an E30 M3 Evo in black, dunno how many are in Australia but this is one car that gives me a rustling in the downstairs department, along with the 190e GrpA.

[db120176]

Originally Posted by KA

Don't forget that Walkinshaw effectively parked the XJS at the end of 84, to concentrate on sportscars and Rovers, but on the odd occasions it came back, Bathurst 85, and some late season races in Japan and NZ over the winter of 86/7, it was still competitive- the real 'arms race' in Group A didn't happen until '87.

I've read on here the Jaguars were "out of homologation" at the start of 1987. How did that work? If they produced the minimum number of road vehicles, couldn't you drive them until they become uncompetitive?

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by db120176

I've read on here the Jaguars were "out of homologation" at the start of 1987. How did that work? If they produced the minimum number of road vehicles, couldn't you drive them until they become uncompetitive?

Unfortunately not, the FIA put a time limit on homologation, which expired on 31 december, 5 years later. So, any car homologated in 1982, eg Jaguar XJ-S expired on 31/12/87.

[Umai Naa]

The idea was to phase out old cars and introduce new cars.

Although, Australia for example, didn't always enfore the rule.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by one five five

Because i am not a fan of 'parity' racing that penalises those who do a good job and rewards mediocrity

CotF takes all development out of the sport. There are control chassis, control tyres, hell even control wheels. Where is the variety??

CotF spec cars are not traditional touring cars, their design is more at home on a Sports Sedan grid....

A modern form of Group A would certainly provide interesting racing. It would be different racing to what CotF will provide though, as all the cars won't be exactly the same....



I actually do care why, given you earlier stated you like to watch the V8Utes, which run to effectively the same specifications as the Australian Production Car Championship

It may be developing, and it maybe not be getting closer to Production cars. but look at all the Other racing series on earth im guessing here, but I'd say there aren't alot of Production based racing on earth. maybe for clubs and event days an such. but most others are getting away from their stock standard road car.


but most (non-enthusiast people) people dont really care whats inside the cars that are zooming pass you at 300 km/hr or take corners so easy itd put million dollar cars to shame and that "rubins racin" thing or that it makes loud sounds that scare the crap outta people. all people want imo is great/close racing, you see on alot of racing series where one team is beating the others all the time, and their competitors complain that they have an advantage, so its not very good for them. and thats why parity is needed to make everyone happy. its just the $ and the better drivers that make some teams perform better then others.



The Utes are very close to Production as you say, but they are quite similar to each other in performance too. theres your Modern day Group A! V8 Utes

[Samwhk]

Bro. Really?

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by Woolley

My preference is for GrpA mainly because of the variety. All V8s handle roughly the same - set up differences notwithstanding - whereas the Rovers, Beemers and Volvos had very different characteristics from each other. I'm also in favour of Touring Cars being built up from the road chassis as a means of proving the model. If you want a good race car, better build a good road car first. And they certainly weren't slow. Again, 20 years of engineering advance would have to be taken into account in comparing lap times.

Variety is good. and its not that I didnt like Group A, I would've liked to see race irl..but the pace that they set on course just didnt match the speeds they do today, Im comparing apples and oranges, but when I think of things thats been done in the black/white past , I think of my older oldies giving me lectures something on the lines of "back in my day".

but looking through the old video's on here, you kind of get the feel that in brock's days, it was more of the driver then the car. I liked seeing all those different cars too, (V8's with 4 Manufacturers next year) they drove those buzz boxes pretty hard around corners (the seirra's lol) but I still prefer modern day V8SC.

[Woolley]

Of course, you can't beat the noise of a V8, so Rover 3.5SD was pretty good. Possibly the best sounding race engine ever built.

[formerf1champ]

The Utes are very close to Production as you say, but they are quite similar to each other in performance too. theres your Modern day Group A! V8 Utes

No...No, it isn't.

[Falcadore]

Originally Posted by KA

it was only really that way at the end though, after 1987 when the RS500 and M3 moved the game on so much, and then a couple of years later Godzilla arrived...

If you look at Europe, where Group A came in from 1982, the first year was a bit of a muddle, dominated by BMW 528s and the early appearance of the Jag XJS, plus some hangovers from the old rulebook (Capris etc)- all cars which apart from the Jag fell from favour pretty quickly, with the 635 taking over for BMW from '83 (IIRC the 5 was only ever intended as an interim car?), and Rover coming on the scene.

From then on, until 1987 it was actually pretty stable- the 635, Rover, XJS and the Volvo (once they figured out how to make it go round corners...) all remained competitive, and even when Ford introduced the first Sierra, the interim XR4Ti/Merkur in '86, although it won races, it wasn't a big step forward on the opposition.
Brock & Grice's European appearances that year probably ought to have resulted in at least one win for the Commodore, if it hadn't been for a mixture of bad luck, shortage of $ and lack of European circuit experience- both the HDT and Grice cars were pretty much on the pace from the start, in a year where BMW, Ford, Rover and Volvo all won races...

Don't forget that Walkinshaw effectively parked the XJS at the end of 84, to concentrate on sportscars and Rovers, but on the odd occasions it came back, Bathurst 85, and some late season races in Japan and NZ over the winter of 86/7, it was still competitive- the real 'arms race' in Group A didn't happen until '87.

Apart from some poor enforcement of the rules (we all know the various cheating stories), the big weakness of Group A was that 'Evolution' clause which allowed a 500-off batch of production cars to homologate a big step forward in performance- Without that, we might not have had that 'arms race' you talked about

Should also be remembered the BTCC had a 3500 cc engine limit. So the Jags weren't BTCC eligible. It limited their marketability only running ETCC.