Vettel (DEU) vs Webber (AUS) part 3

[Mr V]

Thought i might as well start it Although the title may need changing because i'm still not convinced that Mark will be there next year!

Hopefully this thread will work its way down the page and i'll bump it come next season!

[Born Racer]

I didn't think Mark was that convincing on the BBC when he said he'd be there next year.

Who on earth knows though? Mark himself perhaps doesn't.

I think Vettel's starting to really assert himself now. Webber's up against it because Vettel was always going to add some calm to that speed eventually. Vettel's peaks are higher than Webber's too; he basically has more talent. I know Webber surprised most people this year, perhaps even his fans with how close he ran Vettel, but it'll only get harder.

[jab]

I thought Mark looked very deflated after the end of the race

Even if he stays on next year, I have little faith in him beating Seb. I think it could end up like Prost and Lauda in 85

[ASCII Man]

Originally Posted by jab

Even if he stays on next year, I have little faith in him beating Seb. I think it could end up like Prost and Lauda in 85

Alot of mystery retirements and VETTEL WORLD CHAMPION 2011 posters hanging in the Red Bull garage?

[ralf fan]

I did feel bad for Mark. Webber knew like Massa in 08 that this was his one and only opportunity to be champion.

Vettel will be formidable next year. Buoyed with the confidence of having the title in his pocket. Still not convinced Mark will be there next season.

[Super Hans]

I felt quite sorry for Webber afterwards - he seemed utterly heartbroken.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

I felt quite sorry for Webber afterwards - he seemed utterly heartbroken.

yep.
Quite saddened.

But the truth is only he can know how difficult it was to get this far and lose it in a three race series across four weeks.
Its been a hard month, yet every decision, every mistake was his own.

He's a realist, and he can cope with that.
What may be more difficult to deal with is what he alluded to in brazil, and it will not be any different in 2011.
The team (Marko and co, et al.) will be even more focussed on vettel next year and the 'luxury' of being on 'equal terms within the team' will not be there. So Webber may be making some decisions about his future right now.

[TrapezeArtist]

This seems an appropriate place to commiserate with Mark Webber on an excellent year's racing that didn't quite achieve as much as he had hoped. As people, I find the Mark Webber we see interviewed each race a much more likeable person than Sebastian Vettel, so I'm a bit sad that he didn't achieve his goal. However, in the end he was beaten by a better driver. No-one said it was going to be easy.

I'm sure MW will have a bit of a think, and a talk with the team, (and maybe a talk with a few other teams), and then he'll make a decision on 2011. I don't know if he'll come back a better driver next year, but he'll come back an even better man. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by jab

I thought Mark looked very deflated after the end of the race

Even if he stays on next year, I have little faith in him beating Seb. I think it could end up like Prost and Lauda in 85

I think that Seb will be quite pleased if Mark stays to be honest. Today showed that Seb has more speed and talent and that Mark has finally realised it. I don't mean that in a "slag off" kind of way, just fact. Much in the same situation that Fisi found himself in in 2006, Heikki also in 2009.

[gert]

Originally Posted by Mr V

I think that Seb will be quite pleased if Mark stays to be honest. Today showed that Seb has more speed and talent and that Mark has finally realised it. I don't mean that in a "slag off" kind of way, just fact. Much in the same situation that Fisi found himself in in 2006, Heikki also in 2009.

I think you're right.
Even though I'm a Mark Webber fan, I never had any problems admitting that Vettel is (and was) faster and more talented. That doesn't take anything away from Mark, it just adds to his accomplishments.

I think Webber can still win a few races next year, but another shot at the world championship? I seriously doubt it (but hope to be proven wrong!)
Red Bull was always Vettel's playground, and with him being champion, things will not get any better for Webber.

[JABWOA]

However, Webber does like to push himself, so maybe this defeat will spur him on more next year - RBR should still be the car to beat. Just as long as he doesn't over do it (like back in the Williams days.)

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by JABWOA

However, Webber does like to push himself, so maybe this defeat will spur him on more next year - RBR should still be the car to beat. Just as long as he doesn't over do it (like back in the Williams days.)

Say what?

New regs will mean a significantly revised car... it's anyone's bet as to the 'best' car for next season.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by gert

I think you're right.
Even though I'm a Mark Webber fan, I never had any problems admitting that Vettel is (and was) faster and more talented. That doesn't take anything away from Mark, it just adds to his accomplishments.

I totally agree about that adding to his accomplishments. It is thus arguably even more impressive than what the greater talent Vettel has done, despite the praise Sebastian undoubtedly deserves for his achievements.

[SSbaby]

I think Mark needs to step out of Vettel's shadow.

During interviews throughout the season, Mark sometimes comes across as being too Vettel-conscious. Whether RBR have given him equal equipment or not this year, Mark doesn't seem to believe so... so it would be good to rid himself of the demons in his head and make a fresh start.

I also believe Mark thinks that he's a leader in his own right and needs to step into a team that will give him the support he is looking for. He is 34yo, going onto 35 next year but he is still fit and fast.

Maybe, he would be a better team mate for Kubica than for Vettel? Dunno about that one but I'm sure he won't be getting any free kicks from any of his new team mates. To end up in a team with a quick upstart like Vettel could prematurely end of his F1 career. So he would have to think and choose wisely.

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by gert

I think you're right.
Even though I'm a Mark Webber fan, I never had any problems admitting that Vettel is (and was) faster and more talented. That doesn't take anything away from Mark, it just adds to his accomplishments.

I think Webber can still win a few races next year, but another shot at the world championship? I seriously doubt it (but hope to be proven wrong!)
Red Bull was always Vettel's playground, and with him being champion, things will not get any better for Webber.

I have to agree Webber drove well above what anyone thought he could. To win the WC and beat his younger faster team-mate he needed almost a perfect season. And appart from Korea he nearly pulled it off. Unfortunatly I think this was Mark's only shot at it. Next year Red Bull will become a one driver team (Even though I'm not convinced it wasn't this year)

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

I felt quite sorry for Webber afterwards - he seemed utterly heartbroken.

And deservedly so. The fulfilment of a lifelong dream was less than 2 hours away when he jumped in the RBR the day of the race... then it went to cack.. a scrape on the wall meant the car drove inconsistently and slowly for the balance of the event, unable to catch the funky Fernando

Not sure why he spoke to the British media immediately after the race (and virtually ignored the OneHD & Aussie Greg Rust) when his emotions were so raw...

Webber to Renault? Perhaps not if Mr Petrov can do what he did yesterday every weekend!

[SSbaby]

It’s fitting that both Vettel and Webber were allowed the opportunity to race for the title… and it tends to justify the “no team orders” mantra that RBR had set in Brazil.

When you reflect back on the season, you wouldn’t doubt that Vettel is the most deserving champion. Especially when you consider how many times he led from the front only to retire due to reliability issues.

On the other hand, Webber made too many crucial mistakes throughout the year, particularly during times when he was leading the championship.

If you take out the number of times that Webber had crashed versus the number of times that Vettel had retired after leading the race, I think the results (points) would still go Vettel’s way.

A very deserving champion, in my view. It’s always exciting to see such raw talent stamp itself on the sport.

[OZ_HCR32]

I cant see Webber leaving. Why woud he leave the best team on the grid when there is no obvious reason for them struggling next year? The team is the same, funding still there....they are ending the season with the fastest car.

If Webber cant beat him more often then not in the same equipment he would be silly to try it in a lesser car.

I think Webber and Alonso will need a few weeks to clear their heads and come back strong. I think Mark can have another competitve season, he needs his fight to be competitive and the question will be does he still feel like fighting sooo hard every race?

He has said it himself that when he loses motivation he has other things he can be doing. I think he will be back next season but will will know by Rd 4 whether his head and heart are still in it.

I think he will be competitive, but can see how he may start to slip into a Fisi esque roll of just taking podiums and never really challenging Vettel. I suppose the other thing which will help with my decision on Webber for 2010 is a better understanding of what happened to Vettel mid season.

Talk is Webber was better able to drive the car with the early version of the blown diffuser. When they got the ecu and tweaks in Vettel was able to again shade Webber. That is what James Allen and a few others have said, who knows ho true it is.

Its possible, but not likely given Vettel is no Button when it comes to struggling with a less then ideal car...but with Kers, new tyres etc that Mark is on peg with Vettel if the cars are a little more difficult to drive....

[Teretonga]

The difference may be psychological....
Even given an attitude by the team that the drivers are equal Webber's Brazil comments indicate that HE doesn't feel that way...

So next year will it be a better place for him to work if he harbours ambitions of taking Seb on head first...?

He will need hard headedness and more resilience than we have seen in the last month to be able to do it.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Not sure why he spoke to the British media immediately after the race (and virtually ignored the OneHD & Aussie Greg Rust) when his emotions were so raw...

Maybe he was sick of Rusty calling him 'our mark webber' like everyone else is....

Im gutted for Webber knowing that he came quite close and the fact that Vettel next year will be stronger having won the title. I can see mark staying at red bull next year, they should be strong even with the new regs and the challenge of beating Vettel will spur him on.

[Nicholosophy]

Don't forget that there is one big unknown for next year - the tyres. They may really suit Mark or Seb, or the other teams might be able to make them work better. Jenson might have another good crack if they are prone to graining and need to be treated gently.

Sadly I still think this was his best chance.

[Razor]

I always thought that Vettel and Webber are like an old married couple. The two will be on good terms with one another then someone will do something silly, argue, ignore each other but then they'll ask each other for the other's opinion/advice and go back to square one.

[Bevan-L]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Not sure why he spoke to the British media immediately after the race (and virtually ignored the OneHD & Aussie Greg Rust) when his emotions were so raw...

Who would want to speak to Rusty anyway?

[GTRMagic]

Webber to Lotus-Renault? (Also known as 1Malaysia)

[Trev Campbell]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

Talk is Webber was better able to drive the car with the early version of the blown diffuser. When they got the ecu and tweaks in Vettel was able to again shade Webber. That is what James Allen and a few others have said, who knows ho true it is.

Its possible, but not likely given Vettel is no Button when it comes to struggling with a less then ideal car...but with Kers, new tyres etc that Mark is on peg with Vettel if the cars are a little more difficult to drive....

When did these changes appear on the car. Because up until the British GP both drivers were pretty much at a dead heat as far as pace was concerned.

After this Vettel started to shade Webber for pace, the last 4 races Vettel was superb. I think Webber's race pace was identical in Japan and slightly better in Brazil (Until the engine issues) but was thwarted by Vettel's better quali performance (Fractions of a second count in F1 !!!!)