"Proper" touring car

[KA]

Originally Posted by redshoes

From memory it came from Wolf Racing in Germany, but don't remember the details.

I think the story told at the time was that the replacement car was built up by the team using the salvageable parts from the original ex-Radisich(?) car and a new 5-door shell from Germany- either Schubel or Wolf, don't remember which. The German teams were running 4wd Mondeos that year, which all used the 5-door shell

[PDS]

Originally Posted by KA

I think the story told at the time was that the replacement car was built up by the team using the salvageable parts from the original ex-Radisich(?) car and a new 5-door shell from Germany- either Schubel or Wolf, don't remember which. The German teams were running 4wd Mondeos that year, which all used the 5-door shell

Not all of them were running the 4x4!
Eggenberger were running the Ghia saloon, Wolf also ran the saloon alongside the 4x4's. The Ghia was certainly more competitive than the 4x4's

[Woolley]

I tend to think of a Touring Car as something designed for taking the family on a long, comfortable holiday with all the luggage, and I grew up with Rover SD, Volvo 240turbo, BMW 635csi. Lower classes were for sporty cars and then shopping cars.

The current BTCC is really about shopping cars with MaxPower add-ons, and some variety from those is good. The new Beemer is a definite improvement in my opinion, although still not quite a tourer - you need to go up a model for that. Aussie V8s are definitely Touring Cars, since my definition is bigger, heavier and bags of power as opposed to our little buzz-boxes. DTM, while fantastic things are really sports cars having more in common with GT1.

And hatchbacks? They were certainly around when I started watching. Barry Sheene in the Toyota, a bunch of Alfa GTVs, even Escort mk3s in large numbers. But they were never the main game.

[Slippy Diff]

Sounds better than Family Car Championship or Shopping Car Championship. Poetic licence on behalf of the organisers to try and cloud what are actually extremely mundane (Mundano/Mondeo?) cars. Front wheel drive and 2000cc, good grief.

[Peter Mallett]

Agreed Slippy. The BTCC is a very expensive exercise in going slowly.

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Agreed Slippy. The BTCC is a very expensive exercise in going slowly.

you hit the nail on the head there.

proper touring car's makes me think of audi A6, BMW 5 series, mercedes E class and alfa romeo 166.

but in race terms i instantly have the image of the BMW 320I and the current chevrolet lacetti in my head.

DTM are not touring car's anymore, like the JGTC car's they are just silhouette prototypes.

V8 supercar's do a mighty good line in proper toruing car's although, i would like to have a screaming V8 and fire spitting turbo engines back, que the zytek 04S backfires

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

The BTCC is a very expensive exercise in going slowly.

Oh thats funny


Had to look this one up:

Chevy Lacetti (Europe) = Daewoo Lacetti (Europe pre 04) = Suzuki Forenza ( USA )

[Matt]

Yep, which means, rebadge the Lacetti's as Suzuki's for one round(a la Holden at China) and bring WTCC to the USA!

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Matt

Yep, which means, rebadge the Lacetti's as Suzuki's for one round(a la Holden at China) and bring WTCC to the USA!

None of which merit a proper touring car!

I reckon they should rename the WTCC the World Saloon Car Series or something, but as has already been said saloon car racing shapes and sizes have changed back and forth over the years it's hard to define what a touring car actually is!

In the 60's a Lotus Cortina was the car have (close in size to current hatches) then it was Mustangs and Camaros, then it was Capris and BMWs then Rovers and turbos etc...although to win a title you usually had to be pedalling Minis, 'baby' Toyotas and Escorts etc..what the Aussies call a 'small class car' bit like what we have to watch today!

I'd say that the GT1 Astons and Vettes are closer to real touring cars than what the BTCC/WTCC cars are to a degree?

The Vectra and 320 are a step in the right direction if we're purely talking about bigger cars meriting the term. Generally though i'm with Woolley, KA and Mr Mallett about what I prefer - big noisy cars that get your attention. The Rovers and Capris were hatchbacks but they were quite big cars and made a lot of noise!

It wouldn't be difficult to adopt fairly standard regulation for bigger cars. Why not use the current WTCC/BTCC Super 2000 sort of principalS and apply it to big coupes and executive tanks - that would be be a show and a half!!

[touringlegend]

I feel a few here are forgetting the point, the manufacturers that it takes to get behind a succesful Touring Car championship all voted in these S2000 rules, even manufacturers who are not currently competing in them.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

even manufacturers who are not currently competing in them.

Yes, they saw the cost and ran away.

[Woolley]

Or to put it another way, the inmates are running the asylum. What's really needed (and it's the same for sportscars and possibly even rallying) is the understanding that you don't need several manufacturers running a couple of cars of their own choice, you want a set of regulations that produce exciting cars with a simple build process so that you get lots of them, and then have a teams championship. It worked for Porsche 962s, it certainly worked for the Rover/Volvo/BMW days when there were about 6 of each, and it works for Aussie V8s despite the efforts of the organisers. One Aussie V8 is entertaining, 30+ very much so. Who cares that there's only two manufacturers. In fact, if you must have a manufacturer's championship, award points to the first 10 cars home from each constructor so that it's in their best interests to get as many people as possible to run them. Can you imagine what that would do to rallying for a start? In order to guarantee 10 finishers you'd probably want 15 starters each from Ford, Subaru, Citroen, etc - maybe 60 top flight cars at every round. WTCC goes some way towards that thanks to BMW allowing customer teams to compete. DTM tries, but there's too much internal politics as to who's actually allowed to compete, and BTCC has it completely wrong in my opinion. Two each from a few manufacturers and a bunch of privateers in cars of massively different levels of preparation simply because of the huge technical engineering effort required to make them go a bit quicker than the base car.

[daz90]

I think personnal preference and opinion has alot to do with what you remember of the BTCC' past, for me it was mainly the ST years, but i can just about remember the Sierra Cosworths of the late 80's and early 90's. However i have always regarded the mid 90's as the true heyday of the BTCC, this is because to be honest i have never seen with my own eyes the old Rovers and Volvo's that have been mentioned in this thread. So opinions and conclusions will never be fully agreed on.

So i do regard cars such as the old Cavalier, Mondeo, BMW 320i, Vectra, Primera etc etc as 'proper' touring cars, and i would like to see them as the basis once again for the championship, whether that be in 4 door saloon or 5 door hatch. Just as long as the car that is being raced is likely to be bought by us normal mortals for use in our every day lives. We are much more likely to buy a Vauxhall Vectra or a BMW 320i than an Astra Coupe (well most of us anyway), so these rep cars do hold more significance to the average fan, they certainly do me.

I always hated the Astra coupe's and 406 coupe's, i even lost interest in the BTCC becuase it changed so much, and in my opinion it didn't change for the better. Now though with the S2000 rules it seems to me to be going in the right direction again, and my interest is gradually coming back.

Its hard to see the BTCC returning to the former glory days though, all the best drivers now have the WTCC to aspire too, so they might come to Britain on loan from time to time (James Thompson last year) or the BTCC will become a breeding ground for WTCC teams. It would be nice to see more manufacturers back, but its unlikely to happen again. So Wooly makes an excellant point in the thread above, BMW offer help to teams who want to run there cars without BMW actually being a manufacturer team, if more manufacturers did what BMW and Alfa do then the championship would be alot more appealing to the masses again.

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Fewer manufacterors? Absolutely not I think. Myself, I need variation. I want to see all kinds of manufacterors out there on the track, not just 16 Holden/16 Ford or 10 Audi/10 Mercedes. I'm lucky to have STCC though, with 9 different manufacterors for 2006 and possibly two more for 07

[Brown, JonBrown]

As I started watching Touring cars in the mid-90's 'proper' touring cars will always be 4 door saloons and 5 door hatchbacks (Mondeo). The BTC-touring formula was based on smaller cars than Mondeo's, 320i's, 406's but larger cars than Focus's, Meganes etc... Therefore alot of manufacturers didn't have a car the right size to race so it was always going to fail

However I can't see the WTCC being a long term success. I think that TOCA and Alan Gow know more about running successful Touring Cars than the FIA does.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Brown, JonBrown

As I started watching Touring cars in the mid-90's 'proper' touring cars will always be 4 door saloons and 5 door hatchbacks (Mondeo). The BTC-touring formula was based on smaller cars than Mondeo's, 320i's, 406's but larger cars than Focus's, Meganes etc... Therefore alot of manufacturers didn't have a car the right size to race so it was always going to fail

Some interesting points, Jon.

Definitions are varying wildly. I think the real touring cars go back much further than the Super Tourers but I know what you're saying. ST's IMO were simply showroom saloon cars in appearance (with good race mods underneath) and to be fair the current WTCC type cars are similar in principle so they clearly knew what they wanted to emulate?

The BTCC formula surely was originally designed to appeal on cost and availability but then as usual costs rose to a degree where it isn't realistic for the sorts of vehicles being run?

The simplest and most effective form of touring car racing is to take a biggish car and run it to stock/showroom appearance with modifications like bigger brakes, engine performance and suspension etc and to use cars that are going to grab attention - make people think: 'I wish I could afford one of them, but maybe I could afford the little brother or less powerful version?'

I can't see how hot hatches and the like ever grabbed attention like this other than as smaller class cars in a bigger series or alternatively as bigger one make type club championships. They are not major national or international standard prospects as racing cars.

[racer69]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

Fewer manufacterors? Absolutely not I think. Myself, I need variation. I want to see all kinds of manufacterors out there on the track, not just 16 Holden/16 Ford or 10 Audi/10 Mercedes. I'm lucky to have STCC though, with 9 different manufacterors for 2006 and possibly two more for 07

I think what Wooley was getting at is that a ruleset for 'proper' touring cars should be based around the competitors, not around the manufacturers.

By all means make the rules open enough to allow a wide number of marques to compete, but for racing formula to work long-term manufacturers should be an added bonus to a championship, not a fundamental requirement to succeed.

This is something Australia has employed very well going right back to the start of the ATCC back in 1960. Over the years (particularly in the late years of Group C touring cars and during Group A) manufacturer entries have come and gone, but there has always been an emphasis on privately owned teams, still to this day.


I agree totally with the sentiments that your view of 'proper' touring cars is based on what you started watching. I grew up in the Group A era, with multiple marques, different classes, everything from big Commodore's, Rovers, Nissans and Sierra's down to the little class battles with the Toyota's, all based on their road going counterparts.

Touring Car racing worldwide pretty much bores me ****less these days, no variety, lack of driving skill (too much punting the others off, hitting the car infront etc...), too much inconsistency in penalties, all the cars look they are on rails (even V8Supercars & DTM).........

[Alex Hin]

Hi to all
I'm a new member and just want to share some of my feelings
Do you agree that a BMW 320i races with a Seat Leon is a little bit strange?
I mean the length of the car.....
What I think is WTCC touring cars should not less than 4,400mm
like those class 2 cars
Leon is just a hatchback!
Not a touring car!
I don't want to see hatchback races!

[andy97]

I've always considered that a "touring car" is any car that can take 2 people, 2 sets of golf clubs and 2 weekend bags away for the weekend. On that basis the list of eligible cars could be very interesting....but GT series have got their first.

[Peter Mallett]

Hi Alex,

I'll leave to the experts to answer your point but welcome to our friendly forum. I race a hatchback by the way.

[Rich R]

The more variety the better I think. I like to see cars with different strengths and weaknesses racing each other

[Alex Hin]

Hi Peter
To me, I start watching car racing in the mid-90's
Therefore, I was deeply impressed by the class-2 cars
I want to emphasize that I am not opposing the hatchback cars,
but if they are competing with the saloons(like WTCC).....I just simply don't
like it

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Alex Hin

Hi Peter
To me, I start watching car racing in the mid-90's
Therefore, I was deeply impressed by the class-2 cars
I want to emphasize that I am not opposing the hatchback cars,
but if they are competing with the saloons(like WTCC).....I just simply don't
like it

Got to appreciate your honesty!!

However although Peter races a hatchback (a Capri if you hadn't noticed his avatar) it was a different era when the cars to watch were big saloons and hatchbacks so to speak. Back then the styles of hatchbacks like Astra or Seat size cars that we see today were competing in the same series but in a smaller division.

The one class stuff like Class 2 or ST (accepted a good category) and then what we've got now largely came about allegedly because marketing bods decided that the public, whom they sell to, found the class system confusing and couldn't understand how a small Toyota won a championship when a Rover or Sierra Cosworth won the actual races.

However I never thought (as a 10 year old for instance) that it was confusing what would win out of a big Rover and a little Escort, or indeed that the Rover was competing at the front for an overall win whilst the Escort was racing similar cars for a win in its ownclass/division. It ceated races within races and associated dramas during lappery for instance.

I blame dumbing down in society!!

The variety in shapes, sizes, noise etc was excellent.

Modified Production racing always works because you take a basic car and modify it so it retains it's showroom appearance.

[car13]

Originally Posted by cos

With WSR using the BMW and Vauxhall racing the Vectra in this year's BTCC a number of people have said it's good that "proper" touring cars are returning to the BTCC as opposed to hatchbacks and the like. For example, in the BTCC 2007 rumours thread:



I'm just wondering why the 4/5 door saloon has come to be seen by many as the ideal form of the Touring Car. After all, a touring car is only what the regulations say it can and can't be... is it just a hankering back to the ST days, or should 4/5 door saloons be a proper standard for touring car racing?

The best has now gone MG ZS showed what could be done, its a shame MG arnt still around as i am sure the ZT would be out showing up BMW which was half the problem they stopped any true development of one of the few true british car makers who could make thinks work, just look what came out of Rover over the years.

[kmchow]

Originally Posted by car13

The best has now gone MG ZS showed what could be done, its a shame MG arnt still around as i am sure the ZT would be out showing up BMW which was half the problem they stopped any true development of one of the few true british car makers who could make thinks work, just look what came out of Rover over the years.

Team RAC must be trying to sell their old ZSs so depending on the price, we may see them again in the BTCC or elsewhere.