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Old 19 Jan 2007, 19:29 (Ref:1819671)   #51
touringlegend
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touringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtouringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtouringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
I believe they've been sold from reading rumours on other forums, heading off to the Asian Touring Car Championship.
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Old 20 Jan 2007, 12:11 (Ref:1820202)   #52
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touringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtouringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtouringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
For all you "real" touring car fans you should be watching MotorsTV right now, 1987 BTCC review!
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Old 20 Jan 2007, 12:14 (Ref:1820209)   #53
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Originally Posted by touringlegend
For all you "real" touring car fans you should be watching MotorsTV right now, 1987 BTCC review!
Ain't got motors but i'd love to see a copy of that!
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Old 20 Jan 2007, 14:43 (Ref:1820333)   #54
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I bought a copy of the 1988/89/90/91/92 Duke video season reviews the other day off eBay, i have allready got the 88/91 and 92 reviews, but i have always wanted a copy of the 1988 season and 1990, sat and watched those two yesterday, i have to say that the Sierra's were very impressive, and in 1988 Win Percy turned upto a special hour long race at Donnington in some kind of Nissan coupe thing, now that thing could shift down the straights, he had a great battle with Andy Rouse's Sierra for much of the race, untill Win' tyres went off. Some great action between Rouse, and Soper too in 88. 1990 saw some good stuff again with the Sierra's Gravett, Rouse and Harvey doing battle. Mind you that said Frank Sytner and John Cleland did a good job of proving why the 2.0ltr cars were the future, some good close battles between them and a very young Kelvin Burt.
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Old 20 Jan 2007, 14:57 (Ref:1820346)   #55
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Originally Posted by touringlegend
For all you "real" touring car fans you should be watching MotorsTV right now, 1987 BTCC review!
MOTORSPORT MEMORY
1987 BTCC : CHRIS HODGETTS
A look-back at past champions that marked the last 20 years in motorsports.

Next broadcast
Sunday 21 january 22:50
Monday 22 january 14:55
Tuesday 23 january 08:45
Wednesday 24 january 01:50
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Old 20 Jan 2007, 15:04 (Ref:1820350)   #56
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yeah I watched that earlier this week, good old nostalgia catch it if you can!

was interesting to see that in the British touring car chamionship in 87 the Rovers could keep up / even beat the 3 door Cosworths (pre RS500 maybe?)

Some interesting things in there, a Starion, Rovers, 635, a Holden Commedore, Alfa 75 (oh dear) RS turbos, Metro Turbo, plus the Toyotas, both fwd and rwd, the rwd one was amazingly quick even managed 3rd overall in one wet/dry race!
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Old 20 Jan 2007, 16:26 (Ref:1820384)   #57
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was interesting to see that in the British touring car chamionship in 87 the Rovers could keep up / even beat the 3 door Cosworths (pre RS500 maybe?)
Yes, the RS500 evolution was not homologated until quite late in the season (August 1 presumebly). It's first appearance in the BTCC wasn't until about Round 8 or 9 at Donnington (whatever round Frank Sytner won in the BMW M3)
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Old 20 Jan 2007, 17:31 (Ref:1820403)   #58
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Woolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameWoolley will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
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Originally Posted by touringlegend
For all you "real" touring car fans you should be watching MotorsTV right now, 1987 BTCC review!
Fabulous, wasn't it? And those early in-car shots. The steering wheel seemed to be there for advice rather than precision! Big Rovers twitching through the Oulton chicane was pretty spectacular. Didn't seem to catch too much of the threading the needle stuff with the smaller classes, which is what this sort of racing really ought to be about. I think they missed the point when multi-class structures went out. All they needed to do was make class 1 the championship class so that only cars racing in this class could win overall, and then let the others compete for their own classes.

racer69, spot on, that's exactly what I was trying to say.
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Old 20 Jan 2007, 18:53 (Ref:1820432)   #59
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touringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtouringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridtouringlegend should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
It was fabulous, Tim Harvey getting that barge of a Rover through Woodcote was entertaining!
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Old 20 Jan 2007, 19:55 (Ref:1820474)   #60
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcn-I...elated&search= aaahhh , the good old days , when touring car drivers had a personality ....
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Old 21 Jan 2007, 18:00 (Ref:1821052)   #61
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dcn-I...elated&search= aaahhh , the good old days , when touring car drivers had a personality ....
Straying further off topic!! Anyone remember those tv quotes about his rivals from 'The Brode' early that year just before his car was deemed illegal because of the jungle juice he was running?

Priceless!!!

Last days of Grp A sure were fun but still reckon the earlier Group A periods was better for variety.

Imagine how excited we'd all be now with this thread if we'd been able to watch, say, a 1984 season review. We'd be saying: 'Whoa that Weaver v Lovett v Sytner scrap at Thruxton was only gonna end one way,' or something like that.

Or "How did those 2 Escorts crash into each other so hard yet carry on at Silverstone,' ??

Good days.
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Old 22 Jan 2007, 22:21 (Ref:1822205)   #62
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Straying further off topic!! Anyone remember those tv quotes about his rivals from 'The Brode' early that year just before his car was deemed illegal because of the jungle juice he was running?
Oh they were hilarious - "Guy Edwards has had more spins than 'Rock around the clock'. Frank Sytner's had more rolls than (someone's) Corner Cafe. In 26 years I've never seen such pitiful, ridiculous driving...." And that was in 1989! Would love to hear his opinion on today's nonsense.

Back on topic, I am totally in agreement with those who feel top-line touring cars should be big noisy things that get your attention. That's why I like V8 Supercars above WTCC/DTM - they're not without their faults but particularly with the enduro rounds they're the closest to traditional touring car racing in my view.

That said, I think the Group A period was fantastic in terms of variety in the mid 80s - and even in 88/89 when it had distilled to Sierras and M3s the racing was still spectacular. Super Touring was great at first until Alfa started bending the rules which ruined the racing. That's when the processions started and the more kamikaze driving set in.

I think the crux of the problem is that mass-market cars in Europe are mainly front wheel drive, which will never make for an exciting racing car, just a buzzy understeering pig. The only way these days you can have powerful rwd cars is a silhouette formula like the DTM or Rouse's SCV8 project, and the problem there is you either deviate too far from a production-based car/there's no marketing potential for the manufacturers if the race car bears no resemblance to what can be bought (in which case they might as well do F1).

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Old 23 Jan 2007, 20:02 (Ref:1824038)   #63
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GT3 needs a feature race as well - Maybe a 12h of Snetterton (when the upgrade gets done to grade 2) for national GT2, GT3 and FIA S2000 cars. Count it towards the GT3 and the WTCC (class positions of course).

Last edited by duke_toaster; 23 Jan 2007 at 20:04.
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Old 24 Jan 2007, 18:35 (Ref:1824966)   #64
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I think the crux of the problem is that mass-market cars in Europe are mainly front wheel drive, which will never make for an exciting racing car, just a buzzy understeering pig.
To me, ST was pretty exciting. Nowadays, because of the tough economy/competition, manufacturers just don't want to be spending money on motorsports. Other than money, there's nothing stopping a manufacturer from fielding a team, spending money to advertise in papers, TV, dealership promotions. Close racing seems to be the reason for S2000 now, they can continue to have success ballast based on current year and older cars (a la DTM).

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Originally Posted by J-C
The only way these days you can have powerful rwd cars is a silhouette formula like the DTM or Rouse's SCV8 project, and the problem there is you either deviate too far from a production-based car/there's no marketing potential for the manufacturers if the race car bears no resemblance to what can be bought (in which case they might as well do F1).
Why does big hp/engine have to be silhouette? In theory, there should be nothing stopping a manufacturer from using a V8 in their touring cars? Of course, people generally associate V8s with the premium bigger/more expensive cars ,but do those need more advertising than the cheaper/entry level (get them to be lifelong customers) cars?
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Old 24 Jan 2007, 21:55 (Ref:1825181)   #65
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I grew up with the Sierras and was a bit sceptical about ST at first. However, in 91-93 it worked well, the racing was exciting and there was plenty of variety by 93. I just think in hindsight the "wings-for-all" rule in 1995 was a disaster as far was the racing concerned.

What I was getting at re: silhouette formula was that in the Group A days mass-market production cars like the Sierras, Rovers, Commodores, BMWs were RWD, so the groundwork was there for a competitive race car by either fitting a turbo (i.e. Sierra) or big V8 (i.e. Rover SD1). The manufacturer could directly link the race car to the road car in marketing (this being a familiar example) - the actual race car isn't what is being advertised, but the "halo" effect it has on the rest of the range.

Nowadays RWD is much scarcer in production cars, and a 400/500bhp FWD car is totally impractical. So to have a touring car championship with spectacular cars (let's say 350bhp+) and more than 1 manufacturer involved, silhouette is the most cost-effective route. Sticking to something production based involved hideously expensive RWD conversion.
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Old 25 Jan 2007, 14:40 (Ref:1825713)   #66
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Super Touring was great at first until Alfa started bending the rules which ruined the racing. That's when the processions started and the more kamikaze driving set in.
I think that the higher quality of driver and closeness in the BTCC (and other national european series) that lead to processions. Not the aerodynamics of the cars.

Think about it. F1 cars of the 1980's would have more downforce than Super Tourers, but there was great racing. Only recently in F1 has aerodynamics restricted overtaking.

However, even now WTCC has races that are processions (compared with ST BTCC) I think this is due to the equally matched drivers and the fact most drivers are team -mates. (last year the grid was made up of about 300 SEATS, 176 BMW and a few dozen Alfa's )
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