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Old 25 Sep 2018, 14:44 (Ref:3852634)   #51
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Casper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridCasper should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Nothing will get fixed, in the next decade the winning teams will be one of the big three which sounds kind of boring. You might say a cartel has been formed by the dominant three.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 14:52 (Ref:3852635)   #52
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Aerodynamics
Leave it as it is, although again looking at the 2008 rules for inspiration would be best. Realistically speaking however, leave the regulations after the 2019 changes to the front wing (which won't make a difference anyway). DRS stays. Stability is needed. Do NOT listen to the zealots who claim the cars have too much downforce, that nearly destroyed F1 as we know it back in 2009 and again in 2014. This is probably more a sporting thing but I'll put it here: DRS can be used whenever you're less than a second behind someone. If you're not, you can't use it. No more zones, so that if you pass someone with DRS you can't use it again in the next zone like it is now. No DRS in qualifying.
In my set of "fixes" I said to ditch DRS, but my driving factor there was that DRS is a crutch used to cover up other issues. However... if things are done to address root cause issues and we still can't achieve closer racing with an easier ability to pass, then I can get behind something like DRS tweaks. I would actually just all this active aero 2.0. With it designed to help passing and could also be implemented in conjunction with other "boosters" such as short term extra power from the PU. Clearly it would have to have some process to limit it's use.

Also, I like the idea of not using DRS during qualifying.

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Old 25 Sep 2018, 14:54 (Ref:3852636)   #53
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I keep looking at the title and......

Surely Flav and Piquet confirmed that F1 can be fixed.
Well played!

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Old 25 Sep 2018, 15:17 (Ref:3852638)   #54
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Now the big one:
Sporting regulations
To avoid making this too long, a few bullet points:
- Remove almost all restrictions on tyres. Teams get a set allocation of number of sets per weekend and can fill those in however they want during the weekend. Every compound can be freely chosen. Like MotoGP, every car can start the race on whatever tyre they wish, they can decide right up until the warmup lap. And as stated before every tyre can last the entire race so the rule that two compounds need to be used is scrapped as well.

- Decouple the ICE+Turbo from the rest of the PU rules wise. Teams get 5 or 6 or 7 engines per season depending on the number of races. If you go over that you start from the pits. All other components can be freely exchanged. No more grid penalties. Again this is pretty much a copy of MotoGP rules (sensing a pattern here!) Also, every manufacturer must supply identical power units to both factory and customer teams, hardware and software. No exceptions. This can be enforced by the random pool idea someone mentioned in this thread already. Which is what happens in Moto3, incidentally

- No more 'driver stewards'. Same two (or three, one reserve) stewards at every single race, paid and well read. Penalties only decided based on a breach of the rules, not on the outcome. No more micromanaging. Either it's bad enough to be a drivethrough or worse or nothing.


- Stop worrying about track limits so much. The yellow sausage kerb that was put in at Singapore is good enough for every other track where this is an issue.

- Get rid of VSC and replace it with FCY system that WEC uses.


Consessions
Oh look, another thing stolen from MotoGP! This was also considered by WEC to entice new entries into LMP1. Put simply: a manufacturer who doesn't score podiums (or top 10 results, or top 8 or whatever this can be tweaked) gets breaks on the limits imposed above. So like MotoGP, in F1 Honda would get 10 or 12 engines per season and unlimited testing days. Once they score enough 'podium points' or regular points, they lose these advantages. This sounds like a kind of BoP but it really isn't because once you can build a car that's fast enough to get a podium with unlimited testing you can build one that's close to it without it. If the current manufacturers don't like it, tough luck. This may sound like a huge advantage to Honda in this example, but we have real world proof that it works. Suzuki in MotoGP got a podium last weekend and have scored enough 'podium credits' to lose all consessions. They made a mistake with their engine last year and only the unlimited testing and extra engines allowed them to correct it. They're still not at the same pace as the leading bikes at every race and don't feature in the championship but they're there, thereabouts. In the right circumstances they can win races now. It's sort of a catchup mechanism, but once you're close enough it won't help you anymore. This will help to entice potential new manufacturers. And this leads us to:


Testing
The testing ban sucks. It needs to be lifted, but in an intelligent way. I propose the following: a manufacturer can organize a test during the season. However, every other team has to be invited as well, and every private team that turns up will have to have the expenses for the test paid in full by the organizing manufacturer. Manufacturers with consessions are exempt as explained above. Done.

Last edited by EffectiveSprinkles; 25 Sep 2018 at 15:24.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 15:18 (Ref:3852639)   #55
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DRS stays. Stability is needed. Do NOT listen to the zealots who claim the cars have too much downforce, that nearly destroyed F1 as we know it back in 2009 and again in 2014. This is probably more a sporting thing but I'll put it here: DRS can be used whenever you're less than a second behind someone. If you're not, you can't use it. No more zones, so that if you pass someone with DRS you can't use it again in the next zone like it is now.
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In my set of "fixes" I said to ditch DRS, but my driving factor there was that DRS is a crutch used to cover up other issues. However... if things are done to address root cause issues and we still can't achieve closer racing with an easier ability to pass, then I can get behind something like DRS tweaks. I would actually just all this active aero 2.0. With it designed to help passing and could also be implemented in conjunction with other "boosters" such as short term extra power from the PU. Clearly it would have to have some process to limit it's use.
for me DRS is a tricky one. on one hand i agree it is a crutch to mask other issues and for a time after its introduction i do think it was effective in allowing cars to be closer for the remainder of the lap.

on the other hand, there is Ericsson's recent accident at Monza. granted that was caused by an unanticipated failure for the flap to close but it does still highlight the danger of trying to make a corner under braking with DRS open and the added loss of downforce.

part of me wants to see things made harder for the drivers (allowing them to control and use DRS at their own discretion would do that) but i worry that it will also lead to too many offs/accidents and add another level of SC VSC periods.

i suppose if it was allowed to be used at any time then there would still have to be a rule to require it to close automatically when a driver lifts/brakes.

as for DRS in qualifying...how much of it has to do with how the cars are set up/compromise between one lap quali pace vs race pace?

if there is no DRS in quali then we would have slower laps which would not be ideal as quali would be less about outright pace.

as Skam85 suggested, open up the parc ferme rules to allow for set up changes between quali and the race?

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Qualifying and Parc Ferme

- Teams can change their cars post-qualifying, with no parc ferme rules in place. The only proviso to this is that the curfew rules will still apply, with three curfew 'jokers' per season in place.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 16:24 (Ref:3852644)   #56
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P3ndula should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I can't tell the difference between the drivers. Like they all have the same driving style. Mansell and Rosberg muscling the cars into a corner, the super smooth artistry of Prost, Alesi tilting his head, Senna blipping the throttle... all that kind of stuff is long gone.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 18:38 (Ref:3852666)   #57
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Sporting regulations
- Get rid of VSC and replace it with FCY system that WEC uses.
My take on it:

Things to avoid:
* safety car / FCY for every single issue on track or next to it (see: single car stopped in runoff area next to the track - Sonoma Indycar race. Rossi was just in front of the leader when that FCY came, could close up to the back, take a free pitstop and close up to the back again. Net gain: free pitstop + 90% of a lap).
* virtual safety car followed by a single safety car lap to bunch up the field after all the trouble is long cleared up, which when going green immediately causes more trouble than you were trying to solve (see: Blancpain, especially during the Spa 24 Hours)
* drivers who gain an advantage on their competition because they get lucky (based on their track position) and can get into the pits while others can't, especially if the pits get closed first (see: various Indycar or IMSA races)
* drivers who gain an advantage under a VSC because - even at the regulated speed - they lose less time than their competitors, just becasue they are at a slow part of they track and others are at a normally faster part (see: Markelov's win in GP2 a few years ago)
* the "lapped cars may now overtake" scenario which takes ages to complete

So:
* No safety car but a Virtual Safety Car or Full Course Yellow on the whole track. All cars circulate at a predefined speed - this can be different from track to track. The predefined speed may be overruled (i.e.: lowered) by the race directors.
* pits will be closed during the entire FCY period. We don't need to stop for fuel, so no issues there
* Cars that are already in the pits when the Yellow is called, may re-enter the track. Pitlane exit will not be closed.
* The Yellow will have a duration of exactly one lap or a multitude of it. Meaning: It ends when car X is at exactly the same postion as when the Yellow started. Since all cars travel at exactly the same speed, nobody will have gained an advantage and everyone will be at the same spot as when the Yellow started.

Exceptions on the pit rules:
* cars may enter the pits for technical reasons: flat tire, accident damage.
Accident damage: This is only valid for accident damage that happened in the lap before the Yellow. So: no free pitstop. A broken wing occurred on lap 1 could have been changed long ago, and if hasn't by now, it can wait until after the Yellow.
Tires: A damaged tire can be changed, all other tires should remain on the car.
* cars may enter the pits to change from dry to wet-weather tires (all 4)

At the discretion of the race directors, a red flag may be shown instead of a yellow flag.

Last edited by gert; 25 Sep 2018 at 18:45.
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Old 25 Sep 2018, 19:48 (Ref:3852671)   #58
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I agree with everything gert wrote. The FYC system in WEC is not perfect in this regard either.
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 06:26 (Ref:3852710)   #59
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DRS is a symptom of the absurdity of current F1 rules and has only served to devalue overtaking . See also tyres which last a shorter time than it takes me to drink a cup of tea , leading to some poor souls trying to convince their audience that pit stops are interesting. They're not except on the rare occasions when the wheel falls off , somebody is run over or the car catches fire . Think I'm cynical? Look at number of hits on Jos Verstappen fire or social media hysteria when Kimi ran someone over.



Penalty regime is crazy too- as its main purpose is to dissuade racing drivers from trying to overtake each other .
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 08:32 (Ref:3852724)   #60
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- Remove Halo
- Remove DRS
- Bring back gravel traps
- Bring back engine variety V6 / V8 / V10
- Mandate a much shorter wheelbase to stop these cars growing as long as buses
- 2200mm wheel track width
- More durable tyres to enable drivers to push hard at all times
- 80% reduction in upper surface aero
- Allow Vent aero tunnels in the underbody
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 10:08 (Ref:3852740)   #61
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Speaking as someone whose arse is dangled in front of racing cars on a live track from time to time when silly things happen, all the rules in the world for FCY/VSC/SC could be got rid of if the rules for yellow flags were (a) observed and (b) enforced.

Across the world the rules for yellows are basically "danger, hazard or marshals on track, slow down and be prepared to stop" - not "lift off and do the sector 0.1s slower with one finger in the air". It's totally endemic in all forms of championship competition, and in some club/trophy competitions too.

At Donington in one of the F3 races at the weekend, one driver vaulted the kerbs at the Esses under double yellow flags (having passed a single already) while there was a telehandler in the gravel and a marshal hooking a stricken car. That wasn't a nice moment.

If drivers at the top would deal with yellows properly there would be almost no need for full-course alternatives.
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 11:23 (Ref:3852750)   #62
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I think most agree with that, but I don't see how mentioning that here helps. Drivers will not observe yellow flags like you want them to. They just won't. F1 has already accepted that.
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 13:08 (Ref:3852765)   #63
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Well, drivers would have to if the governing body and stewards properly penalised drivers who don't observe yellow flags.... It may seem pie in the sky, but its actually doable, there just isn't any will to do it.
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 13:30 (Ref:3852772)   #64
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Speaking as someone whose arse is dangled in front of racing cars on a live track from time to time when silly things happen, all the rules in the world for FCY/VSC/SC could be got rid of if the rules for yellow flags were (a) observed and (b) enforced.

Across the world the rules for yellows are basically "danger, hazard or marshals on track, slow down and be prepared to stop" - not "lift off and do the sector 0.1s slower with one finger in the air". It's totally endemic in all forms of championship competition, and in some club/trophy competitions too.

At Donington in one of the F3 races at the weekend, one driver vaulted the kerbs at the Esses under double yellow flags (having passed a single already) while there was a telehandler in the gravel and a marshal hooking a stricken car. That wasn't a nice moment.

If drivers at the top would deal with yellows properly there would be almost no need for full-course alternatives.
Thanks for the different perspective on what needs to be addressed!

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I think most agree with that, but I don't see how mentioning that here helps. Drivers will not observe yellow flags like you want them to. They just won't. F1 has already accepted that.
This is the fix F1 thread! This is about what to be done "if you are in charge". I expect if penalties are handed out for this then it will have an impact on driver behavior.

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Old 26 Sep 2018, 13:56 (Ref:3852781)   #65
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Point is more drivers should respect yellows, then we would see less SCs, putting the responsibility on the driver
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 14:51 (Ref:3852789)   #66
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Well, drivers would have to if the governing body and stewards properly penalised drivers who don't observe yellow flags.... It may seem pie in the sky, but its actually doable, there just isn't any will to do it.
There is, but it's not enforcable. Drivers will always drive as fast as they can.
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 14:58 (Ref:3852791)   #67
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I disagree. It is enforceable. If the governing body chose to police it, it would be enforceable. Just ban the next three drivers (irrespective of who they are) that break the yellow flag rule for one GP or even make them start the next race with a 5 minute penalty and they'd soon start observing them. As I say, you have rules and you can either enforce them or not. The choice not to isn't the same as something being unenforceable.
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 15:06 (Ref:3852793)   #68
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The reason F1 has safety cars is to spice up the show - I thought everybody knew that? Its primary purpose has nothing to do with safety , despite its name .
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 15:10 (Ref:3852794)   #69
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I disagree. It is enforceable. If the governing body chose to police it, it would be enforceable. Just ban the next three drivers (irrespective of who they are) that break the yellow flag rule for one GP or even make them start the next race with a 5 minute penalty and they'd soon start observing them. As I say, you have rules and you can either enforce them or not. The choice not to isn't the same as something being unenforceable.
even with the application of serious penalties there is no guarantee that the rule will be followed at all times.

its certainly the drivers responsibility to respect the rules of the course so i agree with the enforcement part (also that its an easy rule to enforce) but surely its more difficult to expect that drivers will observe the rules at all times.

circular logic to be sure, but penalties exists because rules (despite everyone best efforts and/or the severity of the consequences) are not always followed.

from time to time drivers are going to run afoul of the yellow flag.

so surely another mechanism is required to mitigate the risk to those in harms way...hence a SC/VSC no?

imo there are times where the drivers need to corralled like school children to minimize the risk to those working trackside.

its disruptive to the race and boring to watch but personally im not sure i see a way around it.
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 15:22 (Ref:3852795)   #70
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I disagree. It is enforceable. If the governing body chose to police it, it would be enforceable. Just ban the next three drivers (irrespective of who they are) that break the yellow flag rule for one GP or even make them start the next race with a 5 minute penalty and they'd soon start observing them. As I say, you have rules and you can either enforce them or not. The choice not to isn't the same as something being unenforceable.
The problem is that as soon as someone who doesn't care about not starting the next race runs over a marshall you're done.

By the way, the FCY system WEC uses is pretty much as hard as you can enforce a yellow flag situation as possible.
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Old 26 Sep 2018, 15:53 (Ref:3852800)   #71
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That’s why it needs to be enforced strictly to drivers in the lower formula
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Old 27 Sep 2018, 02:00 (Ref:3852878)   #72
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The only way you're going to get drivers to comply is by taking that choice away from them. Forced speed/rpm limiters remotely activated in yellow sectors is the only way to go here. We have the technology.
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Old 27 Sep 2018, 22:24 (Ref:3853054)   #73
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Not ignoring the question of yellow flags / FCY/ SC but I view that as at least partially seperate from the "how to fix" discussion.

If we had 30 posters with ideas on what to do, no doubt we'd have at least 20 different approaches but it's a really worthwhile discussion.

To me, the important points are that:
  • F1 needs fixing
  • Significant changes are needed, fiddling on the edges won't do it
  • F1 cars don't need to be "road relevant" but could use technology with road car benefits
  • F1 should be about entertainment and high-level, committed racing
  • ICE developing lean burn tech would be lighter, simpler and more exciting than current engines
  • Aero dependancy can ruin racing if not done right and needs a complete re-think from current rules
  • F1 cars should be twitchy, wild, bucking broncos of cars & not easy to drive at all - that edge creates its own excitement
  • Tyres connect it all to the road - contrived construction / compounds creates unintended consequences and should be done away with
  • Driver ID on the outside of cars should be more than simply helmet colour and a dinky little number - maybe roll hoop above cockpit set aside for driver ID as well?
  • Say it again - F1 cars should be wild, edgy, light, twitchy beasts that are exciting to drive and watch, even when on track by themselves
The core question is whether or not the powers that be have the intestinal fortitude to make significant changes, or whether they just want to fiddle around the edges?

I know it's not easy with the restrictions on how decisions are made inserted into various agreements but someone of strength and conviction can carry a meeting and this is badly needed in F1.

Consensus and committees rarely deliver quality outcomes and whilst BCE's reign was not perfect, there is probably a need for someone of strength to grab F1 and make big changes before the whole shebang disappears up its own fundamental orifice.
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Old 28 Sep 2018, 20:11 (Ref:3853177)   #74
Mike_Powell
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Mike_Powell should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMike_Powell should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridMike_Powell should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
My ideal formula 1.

Open engine regulations.
Open tyre suppliers.
Customer chassis allowed.
Maximum aero surface area.
Consolidated number of races.

Any engine configuration but suppliers must supply any customer the same specification at the same cost.

Any tyre manufacturer to supply any team st the same cost. No pit stops so tyre management crucial.

Aero surface area to include but not limited to, front & rear wings, barge boards diffuser and winglets.

Formula 1 should be about the top 32 drivers racing, not 20, not all who have got there on talent alone. Want to go hybrid, go to the WEC, want to go electric, go Formula E.

Simplistic, I know, but like most motorsport, the racing part seems to have been forgotten.
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Old 28 Sep 2018, 20:48 (Ref:3853181)   #75
Moneyseeker
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Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!Moneyseeker is going for a new lap record!
Rather than try and equalise the field with budget caps, which some are sceptical about the policing of, I would go another route and change the points system.

Constructor
All teams start with a credit of 100 points- with a baseline set by the FIA on parameters of staff numbers, engine change creditors and upgrade credits. So, for example Ferrari may want more than 200 staff, so they 'pay 'for staff with points, say 1 point per 10 team members. Equally if they want more engine upgrades, they pay for them with points, say 5 per upgrade. Want to bring a new front wing, fine that will be another 5 points. So, Ferrari could elect to start the season at minus 50 points but have more freedom to have more staff and developments, whereas say Force India keep on the FIA level and start with 100 points.

This would have the added strategy that a team way well elect not to use credits early season and spend them later during the year,

Drivers
Drivers would be allocated gold, silver and bronze status a bit like sports cars. Again all drivers would start with 100 points, but gold drivers would be deducted 25 points, silver 10 points and bronze would keep their 100 points.

This is still a budget cap of sorts, but more visible and transparent.

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