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Old 10 Dec 2018, 14:20 (Ref:3869175)   #6151
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Originally Posted by helgi View Post
If there's an open letter to FIA containing concerns about the current state of affairs then my signature is going to be among the first.
What a glorious battle - worthy of songs and legends - we would have in competing which one of us should have the first say and signature in that particular letter

If arakis was still here, he too might've joined... even though his purist allegiances were with GT(2) and the sad story associated with it, it's my assumption that he too hasn't particularly enjoyed these new 'advancements' in top classes recently

But alas, without money and power there is no influence factor, so there's not much to do
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Old 10 Dec 2018, 20:59 (Ref:3869273)   #6152
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So, they have different body shapes that are effective (showy) but not efficient at all. They have engines with mandatory power output - no sense in different types engines in fact. And they have success ballast just to ensure that there are different winners out of different but not efficient cars. I really do not see any point in this type of racing, as autosport has to include technical variety (technical competition, not marketing).
PS I'll watch this only if, let's say, SMP Racing enter a hypercar with, let's say, Auris engine (built by the same Schvabe Munich who produced some components for Porsche V4) - they talked about some racing possibility for that motor (and they have recuperation system too). Maybe not V12 but V8. Of course, it's just an idea, but who knows.
There's no rule that calls for a mandatory shape or no aerodynamic development. It's limited but what you're suggesting is a stretch too far. It's called a performance window where cars are making an amount of drag and such. There isn't any hard proof that you can get away with an aero brick and get bop'd to let's say Aston Martin pace or whoever is in front. There's no need to have a joker upgrade written in the rules if that's the case. I think they're trying for a guideline to performance numbers. Let's see what happens and if there's a hard limit no one can go over because of fairness. In Super GT even with success ballast, there's cars that are still better than the ones without it.
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Old 10 Dec 2018, 22:34 (Ref:3869301)   #6153
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We're pretty happy with the rules. Interestingly they are pretty close to our 003C now aero/size/weight wise. We run at the N24 against GT3's with the most restricted BOP. 100 KG of ballast and only about 460 restricted HP yet we still do OK having gotten the pole in 2017 and running in the top 3 until the rain came. (Our tires were 20 seconds a lap off of the Michelin's but as we'll be on them next year we hope to do better and challenge for 1 OA) Without ballast and with a lot more HP, KERS and active aero we think our LMP1/GT1 will be OK. Interestingly our Ford MK-IV ran a 3:22 at Le Mans in 1967 driven by Bruce McLaren. I realise the course was a bit different back then and hope even with the changes we'll be around that assuming that's where they'll want the new LMP1/GT1's to be.
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Old 10 Dec 2018, 22:46 (Ref:3869304)   #6154
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We're pretty happy with the rules. Interestingly they are pretty close to our 003C now aero/size/weight wise. We run at the N24 against GT3's with the most restricted BOP. 100 KG of ballast and only about 460 restricted HP yet we still do OK having gotten the pole in 2017 and running in the top 3 until the rain came. (Our tires were 20 seconds a lap off of the Michelin's but as we'll be on them next year we hope to do better and challenge for 1 OA) Without ballast and with a lot more HP, KERS and active aero we think our LMP1/GT1 will be OK. Interestingly our Ford MK-IV ran a 3:22 at Le Mans in 1967 driven by Bruce McLaren. I realise the course was a bit different back then and hope even with the changes we'll be around that assuming that's where they'll want the new LMP1/GT1's to be.
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The GT1 acronym was interesting here, is that something you hear they could be discussing as potential title for this yet-officially-named class

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There's no rule that calls for a mandatory shape or no aerodynamic development. It's limited but what you're suggesting is a stretch too far. It's called a performance window where cars are making an amount of drag and such. There isn't any hard proof that you can get away with an aero brick and get bop'd to let's say Aston Martin pace or whoever is in front. There's no need to have a joker upgrade written in the rules if that's the case. I think they're trying for a guideline to performance numbers. Let's see what happens and if there's a hard limit no one can go over because of fairness. In Super GT even with success ballast, there's cars that are still better than the ones without it.
What if an OEM builds junk of a car (either unintentionally or intentionally by playing cheap) and the very limited they can do within the tech freeze window doesn't close them, locking them in crappy homologation for good? Won't they get the same 'special treatment' as Dallara/Onroak/Riley got in LMP2 against Oreca? And remember, the manufacturers in P2 didn't even have political power like the big shot OEMs do... they even have more power for force majeure BoP/waiver influence than GTE manufacturers do
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Old 10 Dec 2018, 23:07 (Ref:3869311)   #6155
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The GT1 acronym was interesting here, is that something you hear they could be discussing as potential title for this yet-officially-named class



What if an OEM builds junk of a car (either unintentionally or intentionally by playing cheap) and the very limited they can do within the tech freeze window doesn't close them, locking them in crappy homologation for good? Won't they get the same 'special treatment' as Dallara/Onroak/Riley got in LMP2 against Oreca? And remember, the manufacturers in P2 didn't even have political power like the big shot OEMs do... they even have more power for force majeure BoP/waiver influence than GTE manufacturers do
GT1 is how I think of it.
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 00:11 (Ref:3869317)   #6156
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW8KeHSR_TE

Toyota testing Hypercar?
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 02:01 (Ref:3869326)   #6157
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No, testing their previously announced GR SuperSport project. Possibly that package developed to be their base of the street engine but don't think they were planning on making that many of them though
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 02:24 (Ref:3869327)   #6158
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That looks pretty cool, whatever they are testing.

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No, testing their previously announced GR SuperSport project. Possibly that package developed to be their base of the street engine but don't think they were planning on making that many of them though
I think that track car looked quite a bit different than the white concept car they showed previously. Could it be an evolution of the design? or testing components for a future project?
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 06:42 (Ref:3869341)   #6159
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Check the date of that video

But yeah, some demo car of the road going vehicle probably
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 14:29 (Ref:3869429)   #6160
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Check the date of that video

But yeah, some demo car of the road going vehicle probably
Is it just me, or does the windscreen look big on that track car?
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 17:16 (Ref:3869472)   #6161
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https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...ssion-for-bmw/

BMW out.

Marquardt keeps talking about the need to have a hyper (road) car in the lineup which BMW currently does not have, but he must mean just the marketing connection.
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 17:48 (Ref:3869476)   #6162
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The BMW i8 isnt a hypercar?
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 18:09 (Ref:3869483)   #6163
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Nah just a normal sportscar. It’s only £113k
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 18:10 (Ref:3869484)   #6164
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I thought they were BOGOF........
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 20:31 (Ref:3869522)   #6165
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Check the date of that video

But yeah, some demo car of the road going vehicle probably
That's my guess. I remember they said that prototypes of the GR SuperSport already tested at Fuji. The video shows just that imo. I know that track is Fuji and Toyota owns it so can test whenever. Plus that has to be footage of the prototype. I wonder how I never saw that video before seeing as it was posted in January
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 21:09 (Ref:3869531)   #6166
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There's no rule that calls for a mandatory shape or no aerodynamic development. It's limited but what you're suggesting is a stretch too far. It's called a performance window where cars are making an amount of drag and such. There isn't any hard proof that you can get away with an aero brick and get bop'd to let's say Aston Martin pace or whoever is in front.
I've read Mr.Vasselon was sure they needed only 2-3 "wise guys" to calculate all the aero for 2020 car. Maybe it's a joke but in every joke there's a grain of joke. They will have that window of L/D=4 - it feels like DTM and it's not cool. If new regs had at least as little freedom as GT500 have there would be (almost) no questions.

Bandoh-san has said (not once) that the main difference between GT500 and DTM is the fact that latter is made for show, while Japanese championship is all about engineering. And somehow they still have full grids, full grandstands and amazing race reports and technical updates in their magazines. DTM guys have only tons of pretentious advertising and nothing more. Just mobile billboards. Good heavens, even NASCAR have more engineering (well, cheaty almost all the time but nevertheless) than DTM. And new LMPGTPDPi-or-how-it's-gonna-called will be the same. Just mobile billboards with zero correlation to any engineering genius. They've already have this type of racing in LMP2. Is it mega popular? I really don't think so. And have anybody thought about those who watch racing because of its engineering side? Well, I have an idea.
I sound like a heretic to myself, but I prefer F1 now. At least they have some freedom for engineers. Yeah, strange world they (FIA) want us to live in. Maybe it was the plan - just to return some fans to F1 as an engineering pinnacle of motorsports. Oh, I don't believe I'm writing it
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Old 11 Dec 2018, 22:17 (Ref:3869548)   #6167
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It's all about the drivers these days, they're the stars supposed to make the real difference when cars... sorry, brand associations are all lined up in glorious unison. Isn't that what everyone wants? Drivers and effective pit work. Oh no scratch that, I forgot everyone needs to have identical pit and stint times thanks to performance balanced fuel restrictors, fuel tanks and mandated mileage windows not to be deviated from. So it's just drivers then.

Which brand shall be victorious this weekend? It better not be the one that won last time around because that's boring, not good for stakeholders. And people will get annoyed and just look at their phones. Time to go hunting boys (for documents that will fix the boringness)

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Old 11 Dec 2018, 23:51 (Ref:3869568)   #6168
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I don't see it as a great successor to lmp1's but it's not half as bad as you're making it out to be. You have to still make your own car, in dtm/gt500 the chassis is spec. You can also make or buy your own engine, in dtm/super gt it's a single formula and size. You can style your own car, dtm has to be a 2-door front engine coupe. If you make a road version you have greater freedom in the ers and engine area. The cars are back to 2000mm wide, they're also longer. They also have their own look and identity, something people complained about the lack of in lmp1 and their shape (not me).

Of course there's drawbacks like the ridiculous high weight and set aero levels. But I have a feeling that there are going to be a lot of small changes to the rules over the next nearly two years before they appear on the grid. I think the best thing I'm looking forward to is the different types of engines. With the low(er) efficiency standards set, we don't have to worry about the teeny turbos that sound like bees buzzing by. Lots here will pick apart the regs and say this and that are dumbed down but to the common race fan, there is a lot of good to look forward to.
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Old 12 Dec 2018, 04:20 (Ref:3869579)   #6169
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You can style your own car, dtm has to be a 2-door front engine coupe.
As opposed to a two door mid-engine coupe?
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Old 12 Dec 2018, 04:44 (Ref:3869580)   #6170
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As opposed to a two door mid-engine coupe?
Where in the rules does it say you have to have a road car to play? Only if you want to use the rule advantages of a road car engine/hybrid do you have to. Private teams or factories aren't obligated like in DTM.
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Old 12 Dec 2018, 07:13 (Ref:3869591)   #6171
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I don't see it as a great successor to lmp1's but it's not half as bad as you're making it out to be. You have to still make your own car, in dtm/gt500 the chassis is spec. You can also make or buy your own engine, in dtm/super gt it's a single formula and size. You can style your own car, dtm has to be a 2-door front engine coupe. If you make a road version you have greater freedom in the ers and engine area. The cars are back to 2000mm wide, they're also longer. They also have their own look and identity, something people complained about the lack of in lmp1 and their shape (not me).
Situation is not bad, it's awful for those who watch racing from technical point of view.

Effectively they eliminate technical regulations. If you have any type of "performance window" than you do not have to generate any bright ideas (even if we consider any type of loopholes etc). If you are too slow then you'll be pulled your ears to the top by "balance" - you do not have to be good at engineering at all.

There's a huge difference with GT500 as they still have technical freedom in aero (side area under the doors) and suspension (I've read SARD won in 2016 because of tiny tricks with shock absorbers or something like that). As for engines - their formula is way more interesting than 500hp capped regs. They still have possibility to gain advantage by clever engineering with prechamber ignition and so on. This is not a show, this is sport - if Nissan have some problems with engines (because they have no programs in racing championships to gain info from) than it's theirs problems and they deal with it, like in real life.

So, even if you have strict regulations you still have technical freedom. It's essential thing for every engineer who has to deal with Physics and Physical laws that are way more serious than any tech regs. And these laws have no wavers at all. And there's no "balance" to improve the situation. You have to be (or, in fact, become) a genius to deal with it and get any type of advantage.

2020 regs are "free" only for marketing lads. From engineering point of view it's a complete null function.

OK, still with some descent commentators you can get some technical flavour. IIRC Rob Barff tried to explain how different GT3 cars deal with some tracks in British GT in 2008 (or so). It was rather interesting. But since then I've never heard anything like that. Just "this track suits this car" or "something goes wrong with that car today". I bet it's going to be the same with 2020. "Freedom" and no place for clever engineering. That's it.

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Old 12 Dec 2018, 13:44 (Ref:3869674)   #6172
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Entirely agree

I wish mr Goodwin saw that and they discussed it on the Pruett podcast, really would be good food for the thought
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Old 13 Dec 2018, 01:51 (Ref:3869813)   #6173
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Car performance is not limited to the tiniest details like suggested. Everything I've read says that the performance window is power/weight l/d in terms of aero. Also movable aero devices might be an area that you can use to make your car better. In super gt the aero kits are mandated now. I think that they might be allowed for one change. Same thing with these rules. There's nothing I see that says you can't make a gain on areas of the car that are outside of the performance window of power and downforce/drag. If they have a trick in the suspension that gives them better handling is that part of the performance window? It's like Indycar where the best teams are the best because they are getting the most out of their setups. Those cars are spec as can be in those areas but there's still teams that win more often than not.

Not everything is good in the rules but imo there's nothing that shows any advantage isn't worth pursuing. The thing is where in the rules do you find that advantage.
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Old 13 Dec 2018, 19:33 (Ref:3870032)   #6174
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ByKolles are next to announce they plan to be there with a 2020 Hypercar:

Endurance-Info article (in French)
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Old 13 Dec 2018, 21:01 (Ref:3870056)   #6175
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bentley speed 8 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbentley speed 8 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Got to love their commitment to the top class, even if most of their attempts have been sub-par at best.
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[LM24] Whats the future of LMP's at Le Mans?? Garrett 24 Heures du Mans 59 8 Jul 2004 15:15


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