Historic Racers In Europe - Carnet Requirements?

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Right, I understand your point of view. Seems that should you cross the border its either you declare to be a tourist travelling for leasure only or a pro, the last involving a carnet. Hope this will be amended for Motorsport at least.
But prepare yourself to an increase in costs and time spent.

Yup, as Eamon says, a small price to pay. Although as I read it the carnet lasts for 12 months so the costs can be amortised over more than one trip.

[Peter Mallett]

I agree, although the carnet thing, not unexpected, does appear to be excessively costly. I wonder if organisers such as PA, Roadbook etc. Might lobby the Customs to reduce costs for amateurs. Just think of the impact on the 6hrs.

[MGDavid]

One bit of the latest MSUK announcement caught my eye. The carnets are issued at a 'special price' of 'only' £240 by the Birmingham Chamber of Commerce. Then it says you fill in all the information online and the CoC print it, authorise it and post it out the following day. So what exactly are they doing for their fee? Providing some stationery and stamping it?

I'd still like to know on what basis MSUK think a carnet is required for non-professionals - all they say is 'Following advice, Motorsport UK understands that an ATA Carnet will be required to temporarily move motorsport vehicles and equipment across the border.'
All very vague and non-specific, sounding exactly like more Project Fear. Advice from whom? And what question was asked?
The guidance by the Birmingham CoC expert document states : (link: https://www.greaterbirminghamchamber...e-jan-2021.pdf)
There are three separate conventions that we can issue carnets for these are as follows:
•A) Commercial Samples–When goods are going out of the UK to be shown to potential customers to generate sales.
•B) International Trade Fairs/show/Exhibitions–When goods are going out for the purpose of being exhibited in a trade show. This can include the items themselves as well as exhibition stands
•C) Professional Equipment–When goods are going out for the purpose of fulfilling their function for such things as dry weather testing, road testing etc;
none of which sound anything like an amateur taking sports equipment on holiday. What we do is not that different from taking a tennis racquet and some spare balls abroad, or a rucksack full of climbing equipment for personal use.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I agree, although the carnet thing, not unexpected, does appear to be excessively costly. I wonder if organisers such as PA, Roadbook etc. Might lobby the Customs to reduce costs for amateurs. Just think of the impact on the 6hrs.

The costs are not set by Customs Peter - it's the cartel of Chambers of Commerce setting the fees for issuing and authorising the carnets, and providing the insurance bond against failure to re-export from the destination country. IF a carnet is indeed required - and I fail to be convinced on the evidence from MSUK so far - then there should be nothing to stop an individual creating the forms from templates and having them stamped up by their local CoC for a small fee, 25 quid would seem reasonable for 5 minutes work. On the same basis, as Aviva have the insurance bond scheme in place then the individual should be able to deal with them directly for the cover.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

The costs are not set by Customs Peter - it's the cartel of Chambers of Commerce setting the fees for issuing and authorising the carnets, and providing the insurance bond against failure to re-export from the destination country. IF a carnet is indeed required - and I fail to be convinced on the evidence from MSUK so far - then there should be nothing to stop an individual creating the forms from templates and having them stamped up by their local CoC for a small fee, 25 quid would seem reasonable for 5 minutes work. On the same basis, as Aviva have the insurance bond scheme in place then the individual should be able to deal with them directly for the cover.

Yup. My reference to C&I was because that's who may be asking for them. Worth checking directly methinks.

As to the sandwich thing, someone just likened it to fining people for walking with a cup of coffee. Over zealous was the phrase used.

[john ruston]

Answer is to race road registered vehicles!
No carnet
Reason for us playing with those Pre War things

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by eamonn ledwidge

Many thanks for your most helpful input on this.

Seems I'll be reviving old skills from my first job in shipping in 1960's and looking for a change of ASN. Small price to pay for 'taking back control'.

Doing a bit more reading up on this .

https://www.gov.uk/taking-goods-out-uk-temporarily Click on [If you do not use a carnet].
It appears you can use a " Duplicate List ", instead of having to pay for a carnet .
Not very obvious how it is done , probably because they would rather have everybody paying , but this is well worth checking out if you only go abroad a few times .

[Duddha]

You may read this, registered motor sport vehicles, private or commercial, it applies.


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apply-fo...net-will-cover

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Duddha

You may read this, registered motor sport vehicles, private or commercial, it applies.


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apply-fo...net-will-cover

Thanks Louis. The CARS UK rates appear lower than those quoted by MSUK.

Next question, do we need a carnet for the tow car or indeed any car we want to use touring Europe?

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by Tel 911S

The sandwich thing is actually in the rules .
https://www.gov.uk/visit-europe-1-january-2021
No meat or dairy products to cross borders .

Just go Vegan! Although given the choice of giving up meat or giving up European trips the bacon buttie wins every time ;-)

>>>>>>>I'd still like to know on what basis MSUK think a carnet is required for non-professionals - all they say is 'Following advice, Motorsport UK understands that an ATA Carnet will be required to temporarily move motorsport vehicles and equipment across the border.'

Because the MSUK can't think beyond commercial race teams, privateers racing for fun don't cross their minds. We see it all the time in karting.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by midgetman

Just go Vegan! Although given the choice of giving up meat or giving up European trips the bacon buttie wins every time ;-)

>>>>>>>I'd still like to know on what basis MSUK think a carnet is required for non-professionals - all they say is 'Following advice, Motorsport UK understands that an ATA Carnet will be required to temporarily move motorsport vehicles and equipment across the border.'

Because the MSUK can't think beyond commercial race teams, privateers racing for fun don't cross their minds. We see it all the time in karting.

I think that MSUK item is wrong .
Cars do not need an ATA , but as in Duddha,s link , they will need a CPD for some countries which are not in Europe .
And the ATA for spares etc is not needed if you go by this link
https://www.gov.uk/taking-goods-out-uk-temporarily
which means you can do it by "Duplicate List ".
But it seems that most of the information put out will be to try to make people pay for things which are not actually needed.

[MGDavid]

Originally Posted by Duddha

You may read this, registered motor sport vehicles, private or commercial, it applies.


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apply-fo...net-will-cover

seen that before; as Tel911 alluded to, it states:

'You mainly need a CPD in:

Africa
Asia
the Middle East
Oceania (the Pacific)
South America'

Not Europe?

[MGDavid]

The whole point about carnets of both types is to avoid paying import duty on goods for temporary import and then re-export.

However as the deal we signed with EU is duty-free and quota-free, where is the need?

Anyone?

[midgetman]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

The whole point about carnets of both types is to avoid paying import duty on goods for temporary import and then re-export.

However as the deal we signed with EU is duty-free and quota-free, where is the need?

Anyone?

Best address that question to Mr B Johnson, Downing St or Ms U Van der Layan, Brussels

[Geraint Owen]

Originally Posted by Duddha

You may read this, registered motor sport vehicles, private or commercial, it applies.


https://www.gov.uk/guidance/apply-fo...net-will-cover

This is correct for rest of the world. It may apply to EU for single seaters, but cars with a V5C are a different animal. I contacted MSUK today. They werent very helpful. They appear to have not sort guidance from HMRC, they have been advised by the Chamber of Commerce. From what I understand it is the Chamber of Commerce that they are doing their scheme through......who I assume see selling more Carnet as advantageous. When I mentioned the tripple list solution and sent them the link they failed to even comment on it.

If my car has a V5C then I can "take" it through the port without a Carnet if I am driving. My question is simple, why would this import duty position change if I were to be towing it instead?

Our race cars are a small part. The same must apply to rally cars. But it would also apply to Smart cars on Motorhomes and moped/scooters on motorhomes that have nothing to do with racing.

I e-called HMRC and had a discussion with them. They pointed me to CARS Europe. I said that I wanted a definitive decision from HMRC, CARS are a commercial organisation with a vested interest. The kind lady sent me a form which I have sent off.

I went through Switzerland to Monza with a single seater a few years ago (car has a V5C). I enquired beofre I went and was assured it was OK. I did the red lane and stopped etc at the border. The guards were fine once they saw the V5C

I dont think yesterdays communication from MSUK was sufficiently well researched and it didnt really appreciate the position of the average club guy who manages to squeeze a trip to Spa once a year