[WEC] Toyota Hypercar Discussion

[Matador]

I think you're reading too deep into what they are saying. Honestly I think if anything, they don't seem to politic enough. Think of what's happened as a teacher giving you an exam to prepare for based on Chapters 1 and 2 and then the day before informs you that the majority of your copy of the exam will be based on chapter 3, while the rest of the class got the chapter 1/2 papers (because you were the head of the class).



For me, my only issue is two fold;
1- Ferrari should not have had a more favourable BoP
2- The "Correction" to the BoP should have been made well before Le mans, perhaps even before Spa.


I can't fathom anybody believing that anyone else put in Toyota's position would feel any other way?

[Aysedasi]

Oh I think they got questions on all three chapters, personally. Like others, I disagree with the ACO backtracking, however as an average spectator there seemed to me to be little in the way of performance difference in the end between Toyota and Ferrari and things could just as easily have gone the other way, which would no doubt have brought forward 'We won despite of BoP' comments from Toyota. Yes, they're entitled to feel aggrieved at the late change that everyone was promised wouldn't happen, but they can hardly say that they had a win taken from them by it when in the end it was co close. IMO.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Matador

I think you're reading too deep into what they are saying. Honestly I think if anything, they don't seem to politic enough.

This is exactly what I'm referring to with the pure and honourable racing comment. They have form for lobbying, just like every other factory - they all do it to varying degrees of success. But it suits their narrative to look like the innocent victim of an unfair ACO, who care more about entertainment than "real" racing. I think it's arrogant of certain higher-ups in TMG to pin the loss on the late BoP change or the BoP process in general, and it's an easy (dare I say lazy?) thing to fall back on. It's also an odd choice to paint your organisation as deliberately naive in such an important situation.

Having said all of that, I can't see us ever agreeing on Toyota's response (we both seem to agree on the ACO's adjustment being ill-timed) so I'm happy to leave it there. I just hope they suck it up and are ready to take the top step for the next race.

[JoeW04]

Originally Posted by J Jay

No, but they were involved in politicking of their own, which I've mentioned earlier in the thread, in the middle and later stages of LMP1.

I understand the frustration with the late BoP change, and I agree in principle - it went against what the ACO had stated and should not have occured. But this pure and honourable racing notion TMG are clearly playing on is rank hypocrisy, and somewhat insulting to the other factories.

I dare say Toyota's recent success has inflated a few egos.

Agree on the final part, small things like drivers not speaking to pit reporters etc, think they’ve forgotten they basically had a free run at the event for 5 years

[Matador]

Originally Posted by J Jay

This is exactly what I'm referring to with the pure and honourable racing comment. They have form for lobbying, just like every other factory - they all do it to varying degrees of success. But it suits their narrative to look like the innocent victim of an unfair ACO, who care more about entertainment than "real" racing. I think it's arrogant of certain higher-ups in TMG to pin the loss on the late BoP change or the BoP process in general, and it's an easy (dare I say lazy?) thing to fall back on. It's also an odd choice to paint your organisation as deliberately naive in such an important situation.

Having said all of that, I can't see us ever agreeing on Toyota's response (we both seem to agree on the ACO's adjustment being ill-timed) so I'm happy to leave it there. I just hope they suck it up and are ready to take the top step for the next race.

Fair enough. I think they'll be back. They are hungry for the respect and do seem to genuinely relish the challenge. Maybe their story will come full circle next year, maybe it won't. We'll see in about 363 days time.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Ho poor Akio, I understand… What a mess. Confidence, you mean? I'd like to refresh his memory, everybody had confidence before the Celica '95 fooled the whole WRC. And when the tests were restrited in F1, they just "bought" the Paul Ricard track to circumvet the regulations. Plus the ban from Nascar.

He's not happy bunny? WTF? Just tryin as others do to influence the instances, which is part of the game for sure. But when it comes to be a flourty years old woman with five children pretending she's a virgin, its just laughable. Ta!

And there was also the time that Toyota stole Gerard’s girlfriend.

But, like the other stuff, that isn’t really relevant to Toyota’s feelings about the BoP.

[Gerard C]

[S griffin]

Toyota were going to get beaten sooner or later, but knowing them, they will make sure they come back stronger next time. Now though, it seems the competition might have just caught up with them after years of dominance and as a result we had one of the most competitive LM for quite a while, certainly the most competitive in the last 5-6 years.

[GingerPixel]

I think Toyota were probably anticipating a lot more reliability issues and incidents. Coming second has clearly unsettled them, and I can see how BOP changes might not sit well with some. The "car ate a squirrel" exuse did raise a smile though.

[PhilipR]

Toyota was not faultless this race and maybe can point operationally where they have lost it.
Ferrari also had their issues but were lucky in the end(the new SC definately helped them)

I get it the increase of weight was something that was not agreed upon originally but I think they are focusing too much on this aspect rather than how they were operationally. Years without close competition might have made them less sharp in crucial moments

Yes Ferrari is a new team but they are basically the old AF Corse team who has experience of delivering against strong competitors

[TF110]

I think Akio's comments are fine. Seems to me he's saying that they fought honorably while in contrast the ACO didn't keep their 'honor' (or word) on last minute changes. I also took it to mean they gave it their best, no sand bags while some makes maybe complained for self-help or hindrance to others. It's all a big game that I think shouldn't happen. But it will still happen so good luck to all the players.

[Coach Ep]

do we feel the outcome could have been different if Toyota had entered a third car?

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Coach Ep

do we feel the outcome could have been different if Toyota had entered a third car?

Maybe, maybe not. Didn't really help in 2017. Finding a trio of capable drivers isn't getting any easier either.

[v8supes]

Maybe. I mean, whos to say if the #7 hadn't of had the incident with the Slow Zone that it wouldn't have been in a position to benefit from the #51s pitstop issues?

I mean dont forget, if it wasn't for the squirrel hit and Hirakawas accident then the #8 was well within reach of the #51. - Probably not with the pace to catch it on track.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by Matador

Maybe, maybe not. Didn't really help in 2017. Finding a trio of capable drivers isn't getting any easier either.

I'm not so sure.
Ferrari and Porsche promoting their GT drivers have shown that many more drivers than previously thought can drive these sorts of cars well.
I'm not saying it's 'easy' to find capable drivers, but GT drivers doing the business has certainly expanded the pool of drivers that can be thought of as 'capable'.
And as has been mentioned previously in this thread, Toyota have plenty of domestic talent too.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

I'm not so sure.
Ferrari and Porsche promoting their GT drivers have shown that many more drivers than previously thought can drive these sorts of cars well.
I'm not saying it's 'easy' to find capable drivers, but GT drivers doing the business has certainly expanded the pool of drivers that can be thought of as 'capable'.
And as has been mentioned previously in this thread, Toyota have plenty of domestic talent too.

Good point. And I seem to remember some Porsche "GT" drivers doing a decent job in LMP1.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Matador

Maybe, maybe not. Didn't really help in 2017. Finding a trio of capable drivers isn't getting any easier either.

It may be trickier for Toyota to do so than other manufacturers, given they don't have a strong pool of GT drivers to promote, but there are enough good LMP2 drivers that would jump at the chance of a seat, if TMG are willing to go for it.

But at the moment, the current setup suits them fine. Yes, Hirakawa didn't shower himself in glory at Le Mans, but I have full confidence he will catch up quickly. There are a couple of domestic drivers that could be options as well.

[Irie]

Originally Posted by J Jay

It may be trickier for Toyota to do so than other manufacturers, given they don't have a strong pool of GT drivers to promote, but there are enough good LMP2 drivers that would jump at the chance of a seat, if TMG are willing to go for it.

But at the moment, the current setup suits them fine. Yes, Hirakawa didn't shower himself in glory at Le Mans, but I have full confidence he will catch up quickly. There are a couple of domestic drivers that could be options as well.

A good LMP2 driver sometimes is not the right pair of hands for a LMP1/top class car and Toyota actually have experience with that.

Nicolas Lapierre a fanatstic LMP2 driver and fast also in LMP1s but a disaster everytime he was sitting in a Toyota at Le Mans

[Matador]

Originally Posted by J Jay

It may be trickier for Toyota to do so than other manufacturers, given they don't have a strong pool of GT drivers to promote, but there are enough good LMP2 drivers that would jump at the chance of a seat, if TMG are willing to go for it.

But at the moment, the current setup suits them fine. Yes, Hirakawa didn't shower himself in glory at Le Mans, but I have full confidence he will catch up quickly. There are a couple of domestic drivers that could be options as well.

Exactly this.

[Simmi]

On the subject of Toyota drivers. A new Japanese protege off the production line: https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/t...ashi/10482863/

[Steve McQ]

Originally Posted by PhilipR

Toyota was not faultless this race and maybe can point operationally where they have lost it.
Ferrari also had their issues but were lucky in the end(the new SC definately helped them)

I get it the increase of weight was something that was not agreed upon originally but I think they are focusing too much on this aspect rather than how they were operationally. Years without close competition might have made them less sharp in crucial moments

Yes Ferrari is a new team but they are basically the old AF Corse team who has experience of delivering against strong competitors

Actually it is quite the opposite, Toyota was near perfection operationnaly during this race. No mistake in the pits (2 minutes faster than Ferrari n°51 in this area, including one 2' unscheduled stop to fix Hirakawa's car in the final hour), good enough strategy, no stupid gambling etc... Only operational excellence kept the n°8 "alive" in the struggle against Ferrari. It used not to be the case few years back.

Regarding SC, when you look at the gap between n°51 and n°8 along the race, it seems quite clear that the new rules were to the advantage of the Japanese this time. The big SC period crushed a Ferrari 51 2 minutes lead over the 8 car.

[J Jay]

Originally Posted by Irie

A good LMP2 driver sometimes is not the right pair of hands for a LMP1/top class car and Toyota actually have experience with that.

Nicolas Lapierre a fanatstic LMP2 driver and fast also in LMP1s but a disaster everytime he was sitting in a Toyota at Le Mans

Sometimes, but more often than not they do (Hartley comes to mind immediately - Porsche noticed him ripping up timesheets in ELMS and it's only gone up from there). I can see the argument that Hypercar, being heavier and less downforce-dependent than LMP1, would be slightly better suited to GT drivers, but they are still prototypes.

I do think it would suit TMG to widen the driver pool though, however they do it, so they have options available to them. Every other LMH/LMDH can have at least a couple of drivers step in if needs be, and likely to a good job of it.

[blankfile]

Originally Posted by Steve McQ

Regarding SC, when you look at the gap between n°51 and n°8 along the race, it seems quite clear that the new rules were to the advantage of the Japanese this time. The big SC period crushed a Ferrari 51 2 minutes lead over the 8 car.

that one time yes, but several times during the race the ferrari's got half a minute on both toyotas due to slow zones starting or ending at the worst timing for the toyota's. like when peugeot got to the front that was slow zone induced. peugeot pitted really early and when toyota and ferrari pitted the zone got lifted and peugeot got them both.

its a bit of a give and take but slow zones usually help the car in 1st or you really have to play them with pitting early

[RL17]

Originally Posted by GingerPixel

I think Toyota were probably anticipating a lot more reliability issues and incidents. Coming second has clearly unsettled them, and I can see how BOP changes might not sit well with some. The "car ate a squirrel" exuse did raise a smile though.

Was the big squirrel real (maybe 24 secs change over hours 15 & 16) or was it a translation error as Hirakawa got a bit squirrelly coming into Arnage (lost over 3 mins then and in following extra stop)?

Toyota drivers did do longer stints (triples then) from 4am whereas 51 double stinted then (think Pier Guido did over 4 hours til 2am to give others a break)

[KlBD]

Originally Posted by J Jay

It may be trickier for Toyota to do so than other manufacturers, given they don't have a strong pool of GT drivers to promote, but there are enough good LMP2 drivers that would jump at the chance of a seat, if TMG are willing to go for it.

But at the moment, the current setup suits them fine. Yes, Hirakawa didn't shower himself in glory at Le Mans, but I have full confidence he will catch up quickly. There are a couple of domestic drivers that could be options as well.

I have to say I disagree with the sentiment that Toyota's driver stable is lacking, considering they have an entire fleet of Super GT/Super Formula drivers that domestically compete in cars which are now essentially equivalent to the Le Mans top class in pace and weight, in what is arguably an even more difficult series to succeed in with open tire development and draconian success ballast, while regularly moonlighting in an open wheel series that is probably only second to Indycar in terms of non-F1 single seaters. I'm still disappointed that Nick Cassidy and Sacha Fenestraz are in Formula E rather than showing what they could do in a hypercar.

You may ask, then why did we not see more Super GT drivers in ACO series and vice versa? My view on that is for drivers, having full time programs in a country and culture so far removed from their own is not an easy choice to make, with the exception of longtime transplants like Ronnie Quintarelli or JP Oliveira, or guys like Kobayashi that went all in on F1.