Rochdale Olympic; A Zef acquisition!

[zefarelly]

I had and have no intention of bolting a roll cage to paper thing old fibreglass, my plan is to bond spreader plates in where necessary and clamp through

My shell is thicker than you suggest, it was built that way to start with as it was used for autocross racing amongst other things. It has also undergone quite a bit of repair work recently, to a good standard and it will need/get a bit more besides

the roll cage is for safety, not to change the charecteristics of the car, at least thats my understanding and interpretation given I intend to use the car for Historic motorsport, by which I mean historically correct preparation, not a new racing a car with an old number plate which seems to be the trend at the moment.

my car has some history, nothing too fancy but none the less I bought the car to restore, not to build another one , in fact thats typical of an unsustainable lazy modern attitude, throw it away and buy a new one, ******** to the history . . .whats wrong with repairing things? asides the fact many people don't have the talent or patience to try.

subframes and mounting where variable to say the least but with a little ingenuity and attention to detail I don't see anything insurmountable in making it drive well enough.

[MGDavid]

well said that man.....

[TonyS]

Hi Zef,
Here is a better picture of my car if you need to get your
crayons out again.
regards
Tony

[terence]

Originally Posted by Nero

it is a car body, you are not selling it with its identity not as a registrable vehicle, but as a shell. However if you are of the mind that this is irresponsible for some reason then cut it up with a jigsaw.
However I wonder how many ferrari's has gone the same way?
What are the legalities in Britain for buying the identity documents of an old car which has been damaged beyond repair and then re-shelling it?

In fact there were about three fakes that were sent for restoration last year,they did not bother with a Jig-saw though,the crusher was faster!!!

[terence]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

well said that man.....

Typical of him.

[Al Weyman]

Sweet looking little car from that angle Tony.

[esper]

please Zef don't get distracted by silly rules. just prepare the car because you like it so whe can study it at full speed through Radillon, either in the mirrors of my TVR of just in front (thats your dream ofcourse). Whenever if just in a BSS race. Most of the 10/10 posters just might forget that above mentioned is whats all about. special cars enjoyed on the edge. dont forget : fiberglass smell is just plain irresistable (did I write it correct pffff)

[zefarelly]

pffff, hey man. . .. . . . pfffff . . . . I was brought up in the dutton factory man, and I lived on a house boat . . . .pffff . . . . I guess the Rochdales a natural progression

sneeze

even the old man drove scimitars so it must be in the blood

[terence]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

pffff, hey man. . .. . . . pfffff . . . . I was brought up in the dutton factory man, and I lived on a house boat . . . .pffff . . . . I guess the Rochdales a natural progression

sneeze

even the old man drove scimitars so it must be in the blood

Yeah,surprising where the bloody stuff gets to when you grind it.

[Nero]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I had and have no intention of bolting a roll cage to paper thing old fibreglass, my plan is to bond spreader plates in where necessary and clamp through

My shell is thicker than you suggest, it was built that way to start with as it was used for autocross racing amongst other things. It has also undergone quite a bit of repair work recently, to a good standard and it will need/get a bit more besides

the roll cage is for safety, not to change the charecteristics of the car, at least thats my understanding and interpretation given I intend to use the car for Historic motorsport, by which I mean historically correct preparation, not a new racing a car with an old number plate which seems to be the trend at the moment.

my car has some history, nothing too fancy but none the less I bought the car to restore, not to build another one , in fact thats typical of an unsustainable lazy modern attitude, throw it away and buy a new one, ******** to the history . . .whats wrong with repairing things? asides the fact many people don't have the talent or patience to try.

subframes and mounting where variable to say the least but with a little ingenuity and attention to detail I don't see anything insurmountable in making it drive well enough.

Approximately 50% of the GFP at the floor will be gell coat, with no structural properties worth mentioning. Even with the addition of an additional 3 layers of CSM my floor still flexes when you push on it when seated. The mounting plates recommened to me after local reinforcement were 18" x 12" with further attachment to the sill. My solution was different in that I used a 38mm x 2mm L shaped tube running from the transverse seat box forward to the wheel well bulkhead and then transverse to the tunnel. This is bolted in two spots and bonded in. The secondary benefit of this increased anti wheel intrusion in an offest front, the most common motorsport accident. The Olympic is not strong in this area. The rear hoop of my cage attaches at the damper mounts and the rear stays attach at 10mm thick reinforced sections (4mm core mat and 6 layers of CSM) of the rear floor, which again is quite thin.
The issues with the original laminate are straightforward enough: the resin is aged and could have lost close to 40% of its structural integrity due to ester loss, embritlement and micro-fatigue, it will also lose stiffness when it gets warm.
Looking at my shell during the restoration it was obvious that the layup had not been done with care as there was much in the way of air inclusion and thus I doubt the laminate had been rollered during layup. Past repairs did not stand up to scrutiny as I think preperation of the base layer for the additional GRP was poor, so you are placing a lot of trust in someone elses work.
I'm sorry I disagree with the imapct of the cage, I believe that you are simply kidding yourself if you think adding 20kg of steel frame relatively high in the car is not going to have an impact whether you desire it to or not, it did with mine. If there is no structural improvement then it would seem poorly attached to the cars structure.
my car has some history, nothing too fancy but none the less I bought the car to restore, not to build another one , in fact thats typical of an unsustainable lazy modern attitude, throw it away and buy a new one, ******** to the history . . .whats wrong with repairing things? asides the fact many people don't have the talent or patience to try
I am not sure if you are simply trying to be insulting? Judging from the responses there seems to be some sort of local cultural element to this about historic racing. Obviously I have personally restored my own car and it copes with the 155 bhp and 145lb/ft quite well, but I am a realist and I can seen the wear and toll use has on the monocoque. Were I to do a competition based car I would choose differently for both safety and for long term survivability of the car. It is a practical response, but if you have the time then by all means restore.
The subframes are simple enough, Keith Hamer makes them and knows the cars well. Mounting it in a car without a datum line, with very restricted access is the challenge and I wish you well with it.

[Al Weyman]

I think this argument with historics will rumble on forever in fact is any racing car truely original by its very nature and past useage? Did I not see at Godwood last year a car get hit so hard it stripped off the entire bodywork, and left just the spaceframe. Presumably that will have all new bodywork fitted as the old stuff was lying in a mangled heap on the track, will that expensive piece of machinery now be deemed incorrect now it has new bodywork? Where do you draw the line on it is the point surely. If the car has a tubular space frame then the point could be made that as long as that is intact its the original car but is it, who can say and what happens if that tubular space frame gets hit hard and has to be be part replaced? As for engines I bet there is hardly a historic car racing today with the original engine/transmission fitted so just what is original?

[Nero]

Never the twain shall meet in this argument.
Of the course of many years a car might have the majority of the parts replaced, so is it the same car? To some no, to others it is not relevant.
I have been told that it is perfectly possible to create a Bugatti 35b from parts available from specialists. There is no practical or visual difference between the parts and potentially no difference in performance so why not race it?

[simon drabble]

if you build a perfect replica you will get papers for it - I think we are straying into thread number three.. (one being Spa 6 Hour, two being Goodwood - love it or hate it? and three being new FIA papers - a good thing?) anything else on this forum is just padding for these threads!!!

[terence]

You got it in one Simon,most of the "Originals" racing these days have only one thing in common with what the are supposed to be,The Number Plate!!!!

[John Turner]

Steady Simon, I might take personal offence to that!

Seriously though, I think that we (or is it just I?) may be confusing two issues. The first was whether Zef could legitimately race the Rochdale in historic events despite that lack of evidence of a racing career contemporary with its manufacture. However, quite rightly, I believe certain clubs/series allow 'period' cars whether or not they had national and/or international racing careers. That in my view is a good thing. I don't think that historic racing should simply be re enactments where only those that raced in period are allowed and simply repeat the results that occurred in history.

The second question about replicas, continuations etc have been discussed at length in this forum and given the amount of comment in various magazines in recent months I may drag up one of the old threads to highlight them. Being specific to this thread though, the point is that Nero has rebuilt and Zef is about to rebuild, their respective Rochdales using the original car as a basis. There is a line of continuous history for both cars from the time they were manufactured in the 1960s to now. This is what provenance is. It matters not that through wear and tear, they (and even more so for racing cars) have had many or most components gradually replaced over the years. We are back to George Washington's axe.

The building of a completely new Rochdale Olympic utilising all new components manufactured in the 21st century is an entirely different matter, and yes, I think that this is a signicant difference to the above. Since it is a new car, it cannot possibly be historic whether or not it gives the appearance of an old design. Should it appear in historic racing since it is a replica and has absolutely nothing that links it to the past other than its shape?

[terence]

Absolutly spot on John,I'm sure Zef would not want his car to be classed as a Continuation!

[zefarelly]

I didn't ask if my car was legitimate, I didn't start the thread! I know the car has period competition history, and that it has not been used or modified since it was part dismantled in 1971/72, and the engine/gearbox sold off, therefore there is some history worth preserving, even if only to a few of us!!!

the question raised was whether it would ever get an HTP, it would appear that Rochdales are not documented in any 'International' races but did appear at plenty of club events both here and in Europe. Keith HAmer has done the groundwork there.

From what I've seen so far there aren't many Rochdales the same, most of them appear to have been modified in all sorts of ways, for a multitude of reasons, as I've already said my intention is to restore it to its period correct specification, and I have sufficient documentation to back up what I intend to do, therefore in my opinion it may well be eligible for an Historical technical passport, whether it ever got one is largely irrellevant, but many lesser a deserving case already has !

[zefarelly]

.

[Nero]

I should add that I have no intention of ever running my car as a 'Historic' racer as it has no such history, unlike Zef's, which is well enough known within the ROC.
Few Olympics were used in competition and I believe that Zef's car may have won more than one event?

[zefarelly]

therein lay the difference, as Nero says, most are modified for fun and individual use, Duffy is a well known and well engineered car, but not for motorsport, historic or otherwise.

I have a box file full of letters and some lists of competitions entered and results, the most notable was the Palyers No6 Autocross finals in 69, the video at Brands is quite cool as well

[Al Weyman]

I didn't start the thread!

It says you name on the first post!

[Farbrooke]

Nice looking car but as pointed out by Jeremy Hall earlier, International Event history is the important one for an HTP - If an HTP were granted without then surely you open the doors for every clubman racer ever built to apply for an HTP - Was the Players No6 final run under an International permit?

[John Turner]

Just to clarify, I set up the thread from a post of Zef's in another forum, which I think I explained in my #2. Also I'm aware that Zef was not posing the question re racing record, but others appeared to want to discuss it, which seems fair enough. Whether or not Nero or Zef use their cars in historic racing, the fact remains that Zef's will be a Historic vehicle Racing Today, if you'll parden the mix of tenses. Ergo, they are in the right place for discussion. I thought the subject worthy of attention and since at the time of this post, this thread has received over 1700 views, I'm more than happy to accept the accolades for starting the the thread!

I was much interested in Nero's comments on roll cages and the structural integrity or otherwise of the shell and I think it would be great, Zef, if you gave us the occasional update on how the rebuild is going and what, if any problems, you find and how you overcame them.

[terence]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

It says you name on the first post!

Bit confusing that Al




Sorry Zef.It would appear that you are not losing it!!

[Jeremy Hall]

Originally Posted by Farbrooke

Nice looking car but as pointed out by Jeremy Hall earlier, International Event history is the important one for an HTP - If an HTP were granted without then surely you open the doors for every clubman racer ever built to apply for an HTP - Was the Players No6 final run under an International permit?

Give me the date and I will check